Will Ferrari ever make another manual transmission?

Because of technology, people want to do less and less. Look at how the rate of kids applying for drivers licences has gone down. Couple that with the video game culture and it's no surprise.

 

No argument just my opinion.

 

Actualy its not uneconomic, its the same transmission. That is why some reference a robotised manual. Porche has not problem offering the 7 speed in manual and paddle. BMW after consume backlash offered a manual.

if Ferrari wants to sell cars to drivers, not poseurs who put their cars in gagages better start offering a manual and treating real customers like customers.

 

Try getting a manual gearbox on a BMW F10 M5 in Europe! - "Sorry Sir, that's a US option only!" (and yet there are far more people who drive manuals in Europe than there are in the US!).

And funnily enough, most of the reviews of the manual M5 that I have read have come to the conclusion that it's not as good as the semi-automatic M5.

The chink in it's armour? - Strangely enough , it appears to be the manual gearbox!


The future Ferrari buyers are the Playstation generation, and they don't want to have to yank an antiquated steel rod around in order to swap the cogs around! - they want it all to be done with their hands and flappy paddles behind the steering wheel, because that's how it was on their Gran Turismo games.

As for poseurs Vs drivers: The Best drivers in the World use Semi -automatic gearboxes! - every other Sunday! - All around the World! - and if they do well enough, they're given the title of World champion!

 

No, not any more. The original F1 automated manual transmissions were robotised manuals, from the 355 up to the 430. The 458, California, and all newer Ferrari models are a dual clutch gearbox, like the VW DSG and 2008+ BMW DCT transmissions. Those can not be operated manually, due to the critical syncronization required between the two clutches as one disengages a microsecond before the other engages.

There's more to a flappy paddle transmission than just the paddles on the steering wheel - we need to be careful to distinguish in these discussions between the old slushbox automatic with electronics controlling the shifts, the automated manual, and the latest DSG/DCT dual clutch automanual transmission, all controlled with paddles.

 

manual gearbox is thingy of the past, you wont see any oem taking that step backward. fuel econ reasons and more.

 

If they were a "thingy of the past' why are so many still offered?

 

Porsche 991?

 

No one can argue that paddle shifting is not better for many reasons but that doesn't mean that it is more fun. I grew up doing posi for fun in whatever car I had and love the ability to fully control the car and not have the car dictate what I can and cannot do. I feel that I have more limited control of a vehicle with paddle shifting. I also find it annoying for road use as when in paddle mode you get stuck having to shift sometimes with the wheel turned while making 90 degree turns. I think paddle shifting makes more sense on a race track when trying to win a race is the only goal. Oh, and for chicks in auto mode.

 

What he said. Modern cars are so digital that the idea of a mechanical lever and pedal are bordering on anachronism at this point.

If you want a lever-operated manual instead of a paddle-operated manual, you can get that, plus carbs, plus drum brakes, on any number of older sports cars.

I think Ferrari would argue that they have done exactly what you say -- written software to deliver ultimate performance, but allowing the driver the opportunity to disable it and shift the car based on experience/intuition.

The only part missing is pressing a clutch pedal, which doesn't require a Ph.D. to master.

I suspect Porsche will be the last carmaker standing to have a manual box with three pedals. Possible reasons:

1. Porsche is not bound up in Formula One, but does pretty much everything else in auto racing, from club events to rallies, etc. Ferrari largely exists for F1, so it would be hard to market cars that don't take advantage of those technological innovations.

2. Porsche is part of the VW-Audi-Lamborghini-Bentley-Seat empire, so they are associated with some high volume marques where costs for a manual gearbox could be shared across the company. Ferrari is more mass market than they used to be, but nowhere close to VW-Audi.

 

I don't buy that anyone is faster, smoother or more efficient with a lever and three pedals than with paddles, and if Ferrari isn't about being the most competitive and fastest then what's the point of it? All that's left is a badge and a lot of posing.

I also grew up with no traction control, mechanical fuel injection, stick shifts, brakes that locked, etc. You could argue that driving in that environment allowed "full control" of the car, but in reality it was just a smaller performance envelope. Everyone was slower, braked earlier, had longer stopping distances. All cars are so much better now that I really don't see Ferrari "taking a dive" on gearbox technology to please a handful of us middle-aged guys.

 

This almost never happens to me, certainly not in road use. The modern Ferraris have very direct steering so there are only very slow corners where you cannot reach the paddles.

Personally, I can only think of 2 reasons why it would happen in a normal road situation:

1. You have completely misread the corner and weren't prepared for it and have to shift down. Considering the amount of torque modern Ferraris have, you would have to seriously misjudge it (by at least 3 gears).
2. You want to shift up mid corner to accellerate out as you are already on the throttle. Well, to still have the paddle out of reach, you are having a serious steering angle still dialled in. Even in first gear, you can do close to 60mph, but why would you be in first? If in second, there is hardly any speed thinkable that is not within the workable rev range.

To me, if you need to shift with a 90 degree steering angle, you are a) not using the engine and shifting up much too early, and b) haven't considered the corner before taking it.

And finally - the paddle is right there. Why not move 1 hand down or up to where the paddle is? You would move your hand off the steering wheel to shift in a normal stick shift, so why the complaints about a paddle which is much closer to your hand? On the very rare occasions that the paddle was out of reach (say accelerating out of the hairpin La Source on the Spa Francorchamps circuit when I want to maximise utilisation of all my gears), I moved my hand to the paddle along the steering wheel and flicked it.

When I bought my classic Ferraris, I had to adapt my driving style. Using 45 year old brakes on Swiss mountain passes made me a better driver. When I bought my 458, I had to adapt again, this time to new technology. Learning something new is fun.


Onno

 

There is at least one 599 GTO with a manual transmission. Ferrari will do anything you want if you throw enough money at them.

 

Falppy paddles are objectively better faster etc. But a sportscar has an emotional or subjective factor, a stick is subjectively a far better experience on the street. For the same reasons you can diable various electronic aides and drift a car, even though it is slower.

Its about fun, thats also why people change the exhaust, the noise is to some passion.
ferrari itself agrees that while its cars have gotten faster they have gotten less fun to drive when off the track, they are dialing fun at road speeds back in to newer models, a stick can be a part of that.

As to who is a driver and who is not. Hardly any ferrari drivers race F1, so the comparison is to other street drivers. I would say that compared to other sprts cars, ferrari drivers fall disproiportianatly into the poseur crowd, with a few very skilled drivers int he mix. part of this is modern traffic laws, which negate use of the car for performance in the first place, so a ferrari is an auto thats great to pose. In reality if you really want to use your newer ferrari either you go on a special rally, or to the track. The cost of operating a ferrari at the track is eyewatering even for the meerly wealthy so in general other cars are run at the track, which once again relegates a ferrari to being a fashion trinket.

Now if ferrari made a verion of something like a lotus elise, but with say ferrari styling and a 355 motor, then there would be something for true drivers and the "brand" could bask in that image and have some steet cred. As it is I find it somewhat embarrasing to tell other serious car people I drive a ferrari so negative is the current image.

Ferrari like trendy clubs gets off on telling customers what to do. if they need sales they will offer a stick.

 

A person might want to upshift while doing donuts. Kidding, just kidding.

 

This.

Ferrari is not the everyman car and getting Ferrari to build what you want is possible but not cheap. I've seen a number of one off cars built for customers out of that factory.

It works better if you have a history with the factory and have spent enough money to be friends with those in control.

They will build things they don't build and will create things that don't exist.

 

If this is the case, I'll have no interest in anything beyond the 430. And thats fine, because I prefer the older cars looks wise. That said, the pickings are awfully slim.

 

I like my 355 Spider stick more than my 458 Spider. Manual transmission is part of it but there is more. 355 is smaller and more nimble on the roads that I regularly drive around where I live. I hate the exhaust note on the 458 - it is either "on" or "off". It happens around 3k rpm which seems to be a cruising rpm for me. Car goes from being dead quiet to super noisy in a few hundred rpm. 355 is progressive noise. 458 exhaust note feels very manufactured. It is great under full bellow but that is not my daily life with the car. It is a pain in the butt remembering to press the "Bumpy" button every single time I set off in the 458 - why can't that be a default setting? The buttesses on the 458 do impair visibility on several of my real life intersections increasing my stress level. The simplicity of the 355 windshield wiper control is appealing over the button on the 458 wheel. The starter button on the 458 wheel is an irritating piece of theatre - I really don't need that on the wheel. The button on my CS is charismatic - the 458 is simply stupid. Actually the simple key on the 355 is perfectly fine!

So I am destined to be an old man with old sports cars. I simply like them more and they seem to agree with me. Same in the Porsche world where I am now very long on air cooled.

 

^^^ Not old just wise!!

Happy New Year.

 

So maybe this is not Ferrari related- but why doesn't some performance company try to split the difference? Create a 3 pedal car that can go to auto mode to be driven as such or put into a paddle mode? Leave the clutch pedal for either manual or auto use determined by if it is depressed? This can't be a big deal and I would be willing to pay a couple grand extra for it.

I'm running out of 3 pedal cars to buy. My DD is a BMW 550 with MT and I'm about to replace and would like the XI but even they have dropped the MT. Why can't we have it all? It's not a technology issue.

 

The problem with this is that the transmissions being commissioned for these cars with the double clutch system can't be operated with a simple gear shifter because the two gear sets 1,3,5,7 and R,2,4,6 are separate. It would cause the car to be heavier and less efficent if you had a full manual transmission so there is truly no point. And in nearly every facet of automotive racing they move farther and farther from having to shift manually because while challenging the true goal is efficiency, speed, and lightness. -Josh

 

If Fchat existed in 1978:

Title thread:

"Will Ferrari ever make another car with carburetors?"

If Fchat existed in 1990:

"Will Ferrari ever make a car without power steering?"

 

Carburetors!! Thats some sexy talk mister.

 

Porsche has managed to provide both the dual clutch PDK and 7 speed manual. I've driven both. The manual is nice, the PDK is a marvel and results in a faster car. The Porsche dealer says the manuals are really difficult to sell.

A recent Road and Track had a short article on how it's become a challenge for manufacturers to make super cars fun to drive since today's cars are so fast you can't approach their limits on the street or top speeds even at the track. A manual can provide a more involved driving experience.

That said, since the advent of the F1 and now dual clutches, the manufacturers are designing the cars for these transmissions. Besides that, given a choice most buyers go clutch-less. My bet is that we won't see a return of the manual.

Good excuse to keep a vintage 3 pedal car around to keep the F1 company in the garage.

 

I drove the 997 PDK and I was not a fan. Shifting both up and down on both sides of the steering wheel? What person decided that was a good idea? I decided it had to be a manual, settled on a Cayman S instead.


Onno