Mondial 3.2 Sunroof broken

Hi everyone, hope your new years car stories are happy ones
Well the dreaded sunroof has broken and not sure how to get round it.
I did see a thread here a while ago but not sure how to apply that to my problem. All the electrics are ok, its a mechanical issue.
Basically the sunroof is in the closed position. The front of the sunroof near the windscreen is up against the roof and lines up ok. The rear of the sunroof has dropped by about half an inch. I have attached a photo.
When i press the sunroof switch to move it backwards to open you can clearly hear the motor turn and cables moving in the roof as though everything is ok and everything sounds good and stops as it should when the cable or whatever moves the sunroof has come to its end as though its open. However the sunroof does not move at all.
Likewise when i push the switch forward to close, the motor turns and you can hear everything moving in the roof and when it reaches its closed position the motor stops as it should, but as mentioned the sunroof hasnt moved in either way.
I assume its something that is attached to the sunroof panel itself which pulls and pushes it open that has become detached or broken maybe? I dont know how to see anything as its all covered up and really hate to think of removing the roof lining and ruining it all
Any suggestions are welcome.
Many thanks.
Peter

 

The photo
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Peter happy new year... sorry to hear. Does the roof come back up in its rear when you "close" it > when the motor stops working toward the forward position?

2 more things: There is NO access whatsoever to any of the sunroof's mechanisms from inside the passenger cabin; there is no need to remove the headliner. Secondly, the motor's stopping to run at the fully "open" position is a mechanical stop at the motor end and has nothing to do with the sunroof's position > the cable hits a stop. In fact, to remove the sunroof, you have to open the roof completely, then remove that stop and move the cable another inch "more open" to release the roof.

The sunroof panel itself is moved by a transversal slider attached to it by 2 strong rods. That slider has a slot in which the sunroof cable end locks itself. The slider also tensions the movable headliner below the sunroof. This setup assures that the sunroof can move down in its rear section to clear the roof before disappearing into it, and that its headliner stays at the same level and thus covering the hole neatly independently of the sunroofs position.

Your problem, I think, could be due to:
- disengaged cable at the sunroof slider due to a broken pin
- broken cable

I would suggest to do the following:
- press the switch until the motor stops in the open position
- remove the end-of-travel stop at the motor (left trunk side behind the trim panel)
- move the cable another inch (quick press on the switch) - not more.
- with the roof down in its rear section, you should be able to push it backwards by hand.
- remove the wind deflector
- remove the 2 INOX rail sections in the opening (2 tiny screws at the ver front, horizontally placed.
- pull the roof panel forward and disengage its sliders through the holes in the "body" rail.

This gives you access to the cable and all the mechanisms for tilting and locking the roof.
You may then press the switch forward all the way and remove the cable.

At the cable's front sections there is a "hook" and the above mentioned pin.
The hook rotates a fixed disk that in turn push/pulls little grips to lower or push up the roof at first when the cable moves. The pin then starts to pull the roof back, all due to an elaborate track in the slider. The hook/pin assembly travel backwards in a straight track diagonally mounted inside the roof.

By the way, nice blue on your car!
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Hi Urs

Thanks to much for your very helpful reply. I'm not too sure of some of the parts you describe and which ones they are in the pictures. You know exactly the issue but I just don't know about removing the cable and being able to get everything back together again without ruining it.
You mention to remove the end of travel stop at the motor, not sure what that looks like but I will try and see what I can do on the weekend if it ever stops raining here, I don't have the room to work on it in the garage.
I would like to try and fix it myself to learn more about it and hopefully the parts will be available.
I guess I thought it would be an easy fix

Again, thanks very much!

 

Welcome Peter - just keep asking.I know it's not very clear but once you get in there you'll understand: Here the travel stop:
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Hi Urs,

Thanks that photo really helps!
To answer your earlier question, the sunroof does not come back up in its rear to close flush when i press the switch to close it although you can feel a slight nudge when the end of the cable or clip touches it when it comes to its stop. I will see what i can do and how far i get with it and let you know how i get along.
To confirm, I will press the switch in the open position until the motor stops. I will then remove the travel stop in the rear trunk on the motor, then briefly press the switch again to move the cable another inch.
The sunroof can then be pushed back by hand and then remove the wind deflector.

Its the sequence after that which i am not sure about, the 2 inox rail sections? I will dismantle what I can see what the damage is.

Thanks again for your valuable help, its great getting to know how these cars work. it seems you had the same problem?

Cheers

Peter

 

Hi Peter

The roof remaining low means that the hook at the end of the cable doesn't turn the wheel that actuates the push-pull arms. Possibly the cable broke loose from it...

Inox rails: The visible sections of the rails are removable so you can take the roof out of its hole. Remove the 2 screws at the front and pull them forward. They'll pop out. You'll see that the body-mounted rail underneath them has 2 cut-outs that are spaced so as to let the sliding feet of the sunroof pass. You lift the front of the roof up and out and then the rear feet will follow, lastly the slider. Prepare a wool blanket to put the roof down.

You'll see when you do it. Step by step, it's easy.
Be careful with the spoiler, its plastic may be very brittle by now.
Some pics below showing the rail etc before I started fixing things...

My car's sunroof problem was very different. It got stuck about a quarter in - the resistance in the tracks seems to increase to the point where nothing moved.
What I found is on one hand a heavy build-up of paint from idiotic repainting several times, plus on of the rear feet that is supposed to fold in at the beginning to lower the roof actually only folded about 45° and then became stuck on the upper part of the inner rail, instead of folding flat and sliding smoothly. Removing paint and re-adjusting the feet got it all working again.

Let me know how you proceed.
Cheers
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Hi Urs, going slowly

Ok well i have attempted the first part.
I pressed the sunroof switch in the open position and the motor and cable turned nicely and then stopped, the sunroof did not move at all as expected.

I then pushed it back slightly to open by about 4 inches as shown in the photos. You mentioned that i should remove the stop cap by the sunroof motor in the trunk then push the sunroof back, is there a reason why i cant push it back without removing the stop cap?
I just need to clarify how to actually take the sunroof panel out. Do i need to completely push it back as far as it will go then remove the 2 inox rails by the screw in each of them and simply lift it out or is there anything else I should be aware of?
I am just worried that once i remove it i will not know how it goes back together. I found a great diagram of the sunroof which i have also attached, is there anything there that is numbered you can refer to that corresponds to what i should be doing.
I noticed your pictures of new cables with hooks and a white plug, how do they fit it into this puzzle?

Sorry about this but as you can imagine i am so worried i dont end up in deep water
Thanks again and hope you dont mind the questions, really appreciate it!

Peter
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I have had the same problem on my 3.2.
Need part #27, mine broke the roller shaft off. But none to be found.
Any thoughts on finding a replacement.

Thanks

 

Hi Peter

You should be able to push back the sunroof completely once the motor stops running.
The roof completely back is a necessary condition to remove the Inox rails #6...

The reason why you need to remove the end stop cap #21 (with a working sunroof!) is that it allows the hook/pin assembly #27 to unlock itself from the slider #20, which otherwise would prevent you from pulling the roof forward by hand.

Since #27 seems broken in your case, I suppose you could just run the motor back as you did (get things out of the way in there), then push the sunroof back, remove the Inox rails and then remove the panel by pulling it forward by hand, guiding the sliding feet through the gaps in the body mounted rail.

Can you actually push the roof back completely?

Don't worry about putting it back together. If you have working cable/hook/pin assembly, all you do it put the roof back in through the gaps, push it back, reattach the inox rails and run the motor forward (from the position about 1 inch out with the end cap removed). It'll automatically engage and move the roof to its closed position.

The cable/hook/pin in my photo is #27; it runs diagonally across the roof in rail #7. At its forward travel, it rotates assembly #28 that in turn lifts or lowers the rear section of the roof.

Cheers

PS: Keep asking...

 

Sorry I don't have a source, mine was replaced a long time ago by the local dealer. The previous owner took the photo at the time. I think the though that a machinist could fabricate the part from a solid piece of metal...

 

Doctor Urs,
thank you so much for the explanation. Am I right in thinking that by pressing the sunroof switch to open all the way until it stops then removing the stop cap and moving it another inch it will automatically release the sunroof panel from the cable and pin.

Then likewise when I refit the sunroof panel in the roof do I place it in the closed position to completely cover the opening in the roof (and not push it back to open position) and by pressing the switch to close it the cable and pin come up against the sunroof panel and automatically engage?

I guess what I'm asking is whether there is anything to do to release the mechanism from the sunroof panel to remove it and again is there anything I need to do to re attach the cable and pin to the sunroof panel when I put it back together?

If that's the case then what's stopping it from disconnecting again as it doesn't seem secure?

If it's the cable I need to find the parts! Is it one unit with the pin and hook like in your photos?

Thanks again, really do appreciate it and feeling much more confident now thanks!

Peter

 

Correct

 

False. You put the roof panel back into its opening and then you push it all the way back by hand to the fully open position.

 

For to roof to re-engage on the pin automatically, the cable must be out of the end cap position by about 1 inch. So make sure that the cable is in the right position (see my photo of it bending up on the inner wheel arch.
When the roof is in its fully open position, and the cable in its "overrun" position by about an inch, the hook/pin assembly is in a position where the guide rail on the slider allows it to engage/disengage so that you can remove or refit the panel.
Once you press the switch forward, the pin engages in a part of the rail that just secures it to the slider, without moving the panel. That happens in that -1" travel. By putting the end cap on the motor tube, you make sure that this disengagement doesn't happen when you use the roof normally.
When it's engaged (no special action needed, it's all in the geometry of the slot in the slider, quite clever) it's start moveing forward by the combined action of the fixed diagonal rail 7 and the slot in the slider. Check the slot geometry vs. a diagonal push/pull motion of the pin. You'll see also that at the forward end, the push/pull stops (the slot is in the direction of the fixed rail, just as it is at the very beginning when it engages but doesn't move) and the hook will turn the wheel to raise or lower the roof via the lateral arms. Check my photo and try to imagine the (for the slider) sideways, and therefore for the roof, forward movement of the pin pushed by the motor.
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Peter you are welcome. I have received very much appreciated help here on various occasions from some very knowledgable members and I am happy to help out and give some back. Let's keep these cars running for the pleasure of all of us!

 

Thanks Urs, that's great!
I am planning on spending the afternoon tomorrow if it doesn't rain to take it apart and see what the problem is once and for all.
Just one thing to mention first. When the sunroof did work it would only open half way and not go all the way back. Earlier today I pushed it back by hand (motor stop cap still in place) and would still only go half way as when it worked. Not sure if thats part of the same problem? Hopefully when I remove the stop cap I will be*able to push it back all the way to remove the rails. If I can't push it back then I have another problem
These cables with pin and hook are so expensive, £550 British pounds but will see if it's repairable.

Will keep you posted, thanks again!!!

 

Welcome Peter.

Just for the record: Fully open equals what you see in the photo below.

The fact that your roof is lowered and can move is a good sign as such as it means that it is unlocked and the feet have presumably folded horizontally. Could you post a photo of how far it is in just for info.

Your roof only going halfway is not a good sign though.
Until it gets stuck, does it move freely, with little resistance? It should...
I suppose the pin is broken, or the cable has become unstuck from the hook assembly.

I suggest you remove the end cap at the motor and make sure the cable is out by an inch or so, to assure that things (whatever is still attached) inside the roof are as far out of the way as you can move them electrically.
Then try to wiggle the roof as far back as possible. You need to be able to get the inox rails out. Else there is no way you can get the roof panel out.

Remove the spoiler and the little screws that hold the inox rails. To remove, pull them towards the inside of the car and slightly forward.
This may be possible even without the roof completely open. Give it a try and let me know.

Good luck and post your update.
Urs
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Hi Urs, fantastic photo of your boy in the back, very lucky at his age and it really suits him!

Ok, so the motor end cap is removed and the cable hanging out by a few inches from the tube, the spoiler removed, the 2 inox rails removed and i managed to push it all the way back as in your photo (thanks it really helped).

The next stage to remove it has me worried. I have attached a photo. In what position should the sunroof be for me to lift it out? If you look at the photo mark with a number 1, i lifted it out at that point so the front feet went through the gap and over the short protruding piece but by doing it so started to scratch my roof as it lifted up at an angle so i had to stop.

Or, should the roof be fully closed for me to lift it out so the front feet go up at position 2 which when i tried seemed hard to lift out but didnt want to force it.

This is the only thing i am stuck with now before i can remove it to assess the damage.

Thanks very much!

Peter
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View attachment Sunroof.pdf

 

Pic attached
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Hi Peter

My boy likes the car

Great you managed to remove the inox rails and move the roof as this means you will be able to take it out and change/fix the cable.
The front feet pass via gap 1, then you need to tilt it just enough to clear the front part of the roof opening, The rear feet will then pass through their own gap as you can see on my photo. By the time the rear feet pass the roof is free and only still held by the 2 side rods linking it to the slider, which will come out via the rear gaps.

And yes, it is tight, and if you lift it too much in the front, and your roof curvature is a but flatter than the sunroof, and/or the re-inforcement of the opening has corroded and expanded slightly, you will scratch the panel. Bite the bullet. I had to touch up mine as well...Brush some paint into the scratch with a fin brush, 1000 wet sanding, and buffing, you won't see it. Only do this once the roof is back in the car...it'll scratch when refitting if it did so when removing.

Cheers
Urs

 

Hi, I managed to pull it out through gap 2 but with a small scratch left and right on the sides

I have attached some photos but nothing seems to be broken off but then again I am not sure what I’m looking at. Not sure how to check the actual cable, as you can see form the close up of the mechanism inside the roof its all connected. It works perfectly sliding along the diagonal slider each time i press the switch back and forth. Do i need to remove the cable for any reason? Its all secure in there and not sure if you can spot anything from the photos? Needs a good clean

Many thanks.

Peter
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Sorry I meant gap 1

Here are some close ups of the 4 corners under the sunroof panel, do they look ok?
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Well Peter from what I can tell from the photos, all seems normal with the roof panel and the hook/pin assembly also moves as it should.
Light into the rails inside the roof and see if there is something stuck there. I wonder why your roof didn't want to move further back.
One word of caution: Don't remove the feet to clean. They have been adjusted and you might change their position. Then one thing however that I would definitely clean or replace is the tensioned headliner part. Can can lift the front part up; there are two lateral spring clips. Then you can unhook it on the slider and clean. If it is the original wool liner, you must use cold water and wool detergent, otherwise it'll shrink.
If your side rails are clean, I'd refit the panel and see if it works again.
Have the motor move the slider all the way back
Make sure the lateral arms are in the position closer to the inside of the car
Put the roof back in in reverse order so it fills the hole
Push the roof down at the rear and then in all the way. If you cannot do that without forcing, your little folding feet haven't folded completely. Take it out again and swear in Italian.
Then try again... If you cannot push it in all the way with light pressure, the motor won't be able to do it either.

Let me know.

 

Thanks Urs,

I have looked carefully inside the roof and its completely clean, no obstructions at all.

I have noticed that the black plastic piece on the cable hook area is worn out as in photo attached, this is the white part in your photos of the cable.

Also i noticed that the hook on the right side under the sunroof panel is not in line with the rod that runs next to it whereas it does on the left hand side, again pics attached.

Other than that i cant figure out how the cable attachment disconnected from the sunroof panel? The bent hook may the reason why it only ever went half way back when it did work? Really not sure.

Maybe i need to change the black plastic piece and the bent hook before i replace it all back together, i dont want to keep removing the sunroof and scratching it again, it hurt to watch it happen!!!

Thanks Doc
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