Its hard to call F1 a formula anymore. There is very little leeway for anything and the engine is now spec for the most part. VW and Porsche have said no. Jackie Stewart is worried Mercedes might leave in the press today, and I think that is a distinct possibility myself.
oh come on! These extremely exciting new engines are the best thing that has happened to F1 for the last 10 years. DRS and other cr@p to make the tv show exciting are "at the expense of the sport" because they are a joke. In the very near future every petrol/diesel powered car is going to be turbo charged because they give power and torque from small and efficient engines. If F1 didn't go this way they had confined themselves to being NASCAR clothed in single seater guise. Why you think these cars will be slower also is beyond me, they will have the same power but MORE torque and MORE energy recovery and thus MORE potential for passing ... and also please where did you get this incorrect notion that turbo engines are quieter? That it is only true for modified road cars. These engines will split ear drums just like the current ones and I cannot wait. It is a genuine shame that we have to endure this 2013 contrived season ... just bring them in NOW Pete
I posted a report that Autsport said the new engines will be pleasing to fans. I have no care for the green, recovery whatever systems are on board. I think F1 should be free of this and just let the teams race. The other systems are not why I care about the ultimate performance F1 displays. I can live with DRS but KERs and rest - it can all disappear and go back to the mass manufacturers for all I care.
Me. They will be. Just watch. Then in 10 more years when they go to N/A 4 bangers we can all comment on how "the change from V8s to V6s wasn't so bad, this will be fine too" and all the journalists can talk about how "the engines don't have a F1 sound but still sound good." And how "F1 is still fastest on a road course" (due to all other series being dumbed down). Slippery slope...
I don't disagree. Would you consider the ERS part of that other crap to be a "joke?" Because without the ERS these engines are just that, a joke. From the sound of things they are gutless 500 HP GP2 motors without the recovery systems. Let's keep in mind that I can go into a Ford dealer and buy a stock Mustang that makes more power than the next gen. of F1 engines probably will. That's a problem, IMO. I was pretty excited about these new engines until I saw that they will be homologated and frozen just like the current ones are. Then I lost all interest... I'll still watch because I love F1...but I was really disappointed to read that.
+1 Agree 100%. Why would a manufacturer want to enter a sport with regulations so tight that you can't even showcase your engineering abilities and develop your product? Who would want to spend hundreds of millions to be tied (at best) with your competitors? Again, we have another conundrum here. The FIA wants new manufacturers in the sport yet they implement an engine freeze?! Now, you look at it my way, here's an example: When did rallying flourish? Oh yes, the Group B days when you had many, many different manufacturers entering because of the lack of engineering restrictions, COMPETITION, and the ability to showcase your product. Even Ferrari and Porsche wanted in on the rally game. But no, it was too dangerous, so they homogenized all the cars and restricted everything under the sun and rally has been dying a slow death ever since with virtually every major manufacturer dropping out. IndyCar had some visions of grandeur about attracting all sorts of new manufacturers with their turbo formula. Well they had 3, now one dropped out, and we're left with Chevy and Honda. Those two have always been around the IndyCar scene. Food for thought.
No because ERS makes more power and is exciting technology and exactly IMO what F1 should be about. When Ferrari first got involved with the premier level of motorsport they joined with supercharged engines like everybody else ... and they were there but not winners. Then along came Lampredi and he convinced Ferrari to drop the supercharger and go normally asperated. I can pretty much guarantee that if FerrariChat and you had existed back then, this would have been your post: Seriously TifosiUSA, F1 has to move forward with technology. It is not NASCAR. F1 is already behind and the current technology advancements are NOT in combustion engines but energy recovery systems. It is completely relevant technology. The new Mazda 6 has it and the bottom line is it means our F1 cars have more power available. So you can buy a Mustang with over 750hp? Are you sure? The current engines are frozen and yes this freeze is sad but this engine spec change means engines are the interesting part of F1 again ... for a little while. And yes it is likely the next engines are smaller and unless Bernie is removed the number of cylinders will be set, but soon our road cars will have under 1000cc engines and they will drive better than our current 2.5 ltr cars. F1 has to move forward. V10's and v12's are now museum pieces. It amazes me that Ferrari still make v12 powered cars, especially such enormous cc sized ones. If they keep doing this they will follow Morgan. Conclusion: We petrol heads ARE a dying breed. Young kids are not into cars, especially engines (they could not give a flying ***** about valves, pistons, etc. anymore ... just has to start and work), they are into gadgets and unless F1 titillates them their audience is gone! It had to happen, we have reached the end of internal combustion engine development. There is nothing left. We know how to make an internal combustion engine, the romance is over. Every advancement in this area over the last 10 years has been in electronics to control the engine*, not the engine itself. Pete * I can point you to threads on the Alfabb site where one guy in particular has fitted modern electronic stuff to a 1980's (I think) Alfa Romeo twin spark engine he has put into his 1970's Alfa Spider. The thing makes very modern power and torque and purrs like a kitten. Starts on the button and does a very good job of emulating a 2013 Toyota engine ... note that these old Alfa engines have variable valve timing, so other than 4 valves per cylinder they have all the "mechanics" of current engines.
Bull-****ing-****! No where even close. *Maybe* a honking POS N/A V8 dinosaur with 3-4 times the capacity and "trick" Shelby tuning could get close. Redlining at ~6K rpm! Wow! Has as much to do with an F1 powertrain as the Viz' granny! I honestly don't know why many of you watch it - Obviously makes you miserable. - It's a spec series. It's not. It's pretty much the only series that isn't. - They'll sound like ****. They'll be just fine IMO. - They'll be slow. No they won't. *Nothing* will go round a road course faster. - They're "too safe". No comment. - It's all a gimmick - DRS, KERS etc. What the fans (in their 10's of K's BTW) asked for. Don't like it? Go watch the taxicabs turn left. Maybe that's easier to get yer heads round - Much "overtaking". "Close" racing. Nobody is allowed to dominate. Exciting stuff. Not. As always, my 02c and not directed at anyone specific. Cheers, Ian
I think that petrol heads often overestimate their importance. Do you really think that everybody in the 50s really cared about how many cylinders had the cars? Well, that´s a gross simplification: there has been a lot of work in materials, dynamics in the combustion chamber, injection systems, variable geometry turbo-chargers...
Gimmicky crap. I might care when all this wonderful technology actually outperforms those old "museum piece" V10s. How much do you wanna bet it won't happen? How can you quantify this statement? I'd love to hear it. ...and I say SO WHAT? F1 is a sport/entertainment, nothing more, nothing less. I swear people on this forum act like F1 has to save the damn world. Millions of people watch soccer every year. Maybe we should stop having real human players out there and replace them with robots because "that's relevant and where the future is!" Anything else must be a waste of time to you. Besides, I don't hate the idea of turbo engines or recovery systems. I HATE the idea of engine freezes, restrictions, etc. Sorry PSk, but if your argument is that F1 should keep moving forward, you should agree that they should stop banning everything under the sun and let the engineers creat awesome things. Remember, we're trying to save the world here . No, but I can with 662 HP. Who says these new engines (excuse me, power units (I guess we're not allowed to say engines anymore) are going to make 750? Remember, we're talking a Ford Mustang here, not a Ferrari. What, like two months before the FIA makes sure everyone is even again? There it is again...or what? What will happen if they raced V12s the next 20 years? Hippies picketing the races? I mean seriously, what would happen? You couldn't be more wrong. The only way Ferrari is going to lose business is if they STOP making V12s and V8s. I would be fine if F1 looked at other options, such as rotories. Would make for some interesting development and at least they sound good. Just leave the electric crap in Formula E or whatever theyre calling it (that no one will watch).
Hate to break it to you but 662 HP out of a Mustang GT500 for about $54k is DAMN close to the 750 HP of today's cars. I'm betting the new engines have even less power. If I wanted to blow an F1 car away power-wise I'd drop a 3.4 stroker in my old 1994 Supra with all supporting mods and make 1300+ HP out of a little 3.4L with dinosaur tech. How's that HP/L? Oh yeah, better than an F1 car. So yes actually, 650-750 HP is nothing anymore and road cars (even relatively cheap ones) are knocking right on the door of F1 power levels.
You're getting it all twisted...I said POWER LEVELS as in HORSEPOWER, not a ****ing F1 drivetrain. Funny you bring up NASCAR and talk down on it yet you're always an apologist for all the crap that comes down the pipeline to bunch the cars up in F1 and make them more spec...
+1 Not to mention they're now ridiculously clean to boot. Some of the latest stuff actually cleans the air in polluted cities. Florian mentioned that he's gotta use "pure" (decontaminated) air in order to get good emission readings from his test bed! As well as being "clean" they're *incredibly* efficient. They still suck though...... Now, I could certainly make an argument that VVT, variable geometry, stability control, ABS, compound turbo's and the like should also feature. The teams don't want it and the fans didn't like it........ Cheers, Ian
Oh dear! I just checked, and that beast has a 5.4L supercharged V8! *Awfully* close to a 1.6L F1 car...... Err, nope. You're claiming about the same HP/L. I very much doubt you'll get close though. Yeah, with engines 3-4 times the size. Cheers, Ian
What do you mean nope? It's been done many times. If I wanted to get 1400 HP out of a 3.4L 2JZ-GTE it's doable. And I'm talking WHP. Crank you're looking at 1600+. Obviously. A single F1 engine probably costs five times what the entire Mustang costs. The bottom line is the power. I know it kinda chaps you, but it's pretty sad that we've got cheap production cars with as much balls as a F1 car. That's how much they've been neutered. 1000+ HP to 700 (with the ERS going). RIP F1 engines with balls.
Of course they will. v10 engines just made x power and y torque. The performance restrictions on our modern cars has been reducing down force. I think you should go and watch historic motorsport so you can giz at any v10 that happens to be rolled out. These new turbo charged engines can potentially make way more power, just turn up the boost BUT everybody other than you now realises that lap time does not directly equate to engine performance. Example: You go and buy your 662hp Mustang and lets meet at Laguna Seca ... I'll be in a Formula Alantic (Pacific over here) ... good buy Mustang. First of all I never said F1 had to save the damn world and I don't see energy recovery as green energy at all. I see it as more available power and I think it is bloody clever! These cars are so much more efficient than your fantasy v10's, wonderfully clever engineering. Regarding the entertainment comment. You should probably know that I do not view sport as entertainment. It is what us men do. I'm not into discussing how I feel every 10 seconds or how cute my new shoes are, I like to discuss things I make with my own hands and motorracing is the ultimate "I made a better thing than you contest". On top of that you can get in and drive the thing as well ... heck how cool is that! No disagreement here. I'm not sure where you got the idea I was a fan of any freeze? Mercedes did, didn't they?: You can thank Bernie for that, but it will take longer with new engines I hope. Turbo charged, v6 engined and ERS powered cars would be faster. Remember Ferrari could not win with the v12 because the cooling requirements were too much and made the whole package too heavy. They went to v10's not because the engine gave them all hard ons, but because they could reduce the cooling radiators and make a more competitive package. v12's => inefficient and thus slower than could ultimately be package. Same could be said for Morgan. But as we are talking about road cars, performance is a mute point ... v6 or even 4 cylinder car with same power would be lighter and thus piss all over a v12 powered car. Ferrari road cars, especially the v12 ones (including Enzo) have not been about ultimate performance since the Daytona ... its all about w@anking. It is not electric crap, it is energy recovery that would otherwise have been wasted. The goal of any race engineer is to make their package a winner. Doing this means designing the fastest car within the rules. A car without ERS is not going to lap as fast as a car with it, even in a completely open formula, let alone finish a 70 lap race. Why because (thankfully) refuelling is no longer allowed and thus the car without ERS to be remotely close to the same performance would have to carry a lot more fuel, thus be heavier and slower. Surely the engineering side of you can see this is pretty clever stuff. Pete
It is clever, but why can't you use it all the time? Why the limits? That's stupid. As for these cars being faster, I'll stick my neck out there and say the 2014+ V6 turbo cars will not set any new lap records unless it's a brand new track or new configuration. The 2004 cars will remain king. I fail to understand why the FIA can't just give them fuel limits and let them go at it. Why the mandatory cylinder count? If someone can meet a designated efficiency standard with a V16 it should be legal. There ya go, relevant tech that is 100% more exciting because it's not so standardized. Can you imagine the speculation around what kind of engine each team would run? The different sounds on the racetrack? It would be fantastic.
I think we're on the same page with a lot of things but I'm still betting these new cars are 2 seconds slower than today's cars, much less the V10 monsters.
There would be no overtakes and aggressive driving. It would be like grandmas in Hondas around the pension's building
