You don't believe we've been witnessing some of the closest, difficult to predict and exciting racing we've ever had over the past couple of years? +1 Remember though that refueling was outlawed on cost grounds - The refueling rigs had their own 747 for the fly aways......... Pirelli (somewhat unintentionally it seems) did just that early last season. Remember the *howls* from the peanut gallery that it was all *too* mixed up? Beyond tires, anyone want to make any suggestions as to what "F1 and the FIA could do"? And *please* don't say "throw the rule book away and let 'em at it!" - While I'd love to see it, costs would explode and the sport would surely die. I won't go as far as to claim we're in any "golden age", but I do think we've got it pretty damn good right now.... Youngsters today will look back on the "golden days of Sebby V" the way many here look back at the Schu's era. The sport moves on. Small turbo motors with advanced energy recovery & storage are the way forward. Getting ~750HP and 4000KM out of 1600cc isn't bad! Cheers, Ian
Found this report; http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/11/02/214387.html Note also that they're not using urea injection to do this. OK, F1 is (fortunately!) gas not diesel and they don't run cats. But as I've said, they are remarkably efficient. And they'll get even more so as the R&D continues. One reason why I'm not (yet at least) too worried about there being enough fuel - They'll figure it out. Cheers, Ian
Not me, but my colleagues from another institute at our university who also run engine test beds (acutally, they have a dozen of them ) - correct! They're right! The particle filters in modern Diesel engines catch more particles than the soot the engine produces - dust, pollen, all the stuff that's in the air. Depending on where you are, the air that comes out of the exhaust often contains considerably less particles than the outside air. The effect is of course bigger in Beijing than it is in Antarctica
Thankyou sir!...... I think some here thought I'd lost my marbles...... [Some probably still do ] Cheers, Ian
+1 IIRC, Clarkson also said the same on TG a while back - But I didn't want to be laughed out of town by quoting *him*! Thanks again to Florian for the definitive answer..... Cheers, Ian
Unfortunately I don't have any own measurement data to show (we don't measure the outside air at our test bed), but it's something you get to hear at every conference... usually by speakers whose first presentation it is, and then they get up on the stage and can hardly hide their excitement about what's to come now - "You know what, gentlemen? The exhaust gasses that come out of our particle filters are less polluted than the outside air! That's COOL, eh?", and the audience goes *sigh*, "oh REALLY?" Particle/soot measurement is pretty cool stuff, btw... we have a device that measures the amount of soot in the exhaust gasses by shooting laser beams through it and analyzing the noise the particles make when they crack and burn
Yeh I agree you have.. Great stuff, Ian I agree with a lot of what you have posted in this thread, and also F pilot n Florian, good info to chew on. and TifosiUSA good music taste..
Clarkson also says that to remove carbon monoxide from our environment all we need is a tube to outer space, where there is a vacuum and it will all be sucked up. First in your case it's the filters doing the job and not some new engine technology. Second I don't think pollen and dust are the biggest problem on earth, and surely not the reason behind hybrids. Third what's written in an article on Internet citing anonymous engineers is not necessarily true. And fourth if an engine works by burning fuel and oxygen releasing carbon monoxide, there is no way any filter can reverse the process. Why the pollution figures for vw clean tdi are not negative then? The only truth is that the pollution measured for some engines in sterile air conditions could be less than the one measured in big cities at rush hours. Hardly an achievement. Clarkson is a clown. Funny but a clown.
Optimizing the combustion is the key part in optimizing the emissions - filters can only do so much. The particle filters however are great! The particles filtered out are not only pollen and dust, but every other soot emission too. Look at Beijing right now to see what coal plants can do. Of course you will never clean the air from particles with cars, but that what comes out is cleaner in this respect than what comes in is amazing! Shoot me a PM and I'll tell you how to verify what I do In Diesel engines, CO and HC are converted by the oxidation catalyst. Conversion rates are well at 100% at the catalysts operating temperature. The critical phase is the warmup phase of the catalyst. Under test conditions, we're talking about the first 10-20 seconds of the usual test cycles (NEDC, FTP75, US06 and so on) - you win or lose in that timeframe, the rest of the 10-20 minutes are essentially meaningless in the grand scheme of things as the catalyst is working then.
+1 and the exact reason I didn't quote him but rather asked our resident guru to comment..... No doubt. But see Florians comments. Beg to differ. Florian (not an anonymous internet engineer btw) has confirmed that in polluted environments ("Beijing, LA, Harrogate" ) the exhaust gases are indeed cleaner (less pollutants) than the intake air. I'm sure Florian will confirm (or throw the BS flag on me ) that if the engine were tested in Beijing it would indeed show negative pollution figures. Cheers, Ian
All well and fine but the air that comes in is not more polluted that the one coming out. Carbon monoxide is always produced and oxygen consumed. Not when testing in the same place at the same time. And I wasn't referring to you but at the engineers cited in the jetta clean tdi article. Agree?
I didn't take the pictures yet because our test bed currently, uhm, is in a state of high entropy Too cold outside to tidy up But our website guy is constantly complaining about the lack of pictures, too... eventually there'll be a time we have to do it! You have to define "polluted" to discuss that subject. For those not in the know, we have 4 main pollutants: CO HC NOx Soot (mainly carbon particles) Let's stay with the Diesel engine to keep matters simple. CO and HC can effectively be dealt with by an oxidation catalyst. As I said, warm-up time is critical here. When it's hot, CO&HC are done. NOx is more critical, aftertreatment is expensive and/or inconvenient for the customer (refilling urea) and can thus mostly be found in trucks etc. The mechanisms for the creation of NOx and soot are somewhat antagonistic, passenger cars often have an engine setup that makes the engine emit less NOx with the downside of more soot. Soot is dealt with by particle filters. And here it gets interesting: While the aftertreatment devices for the formerly discussed emission components only deal with the emissions of the actual engine in a significant scale, the particle filter doesn't care what it filters out of the gas that flows through it. So yes, the air that comes out of the exhaust pipe can be cleaner than what came in, when you're talking about particulate matter. An *ideal* stoichiometric combustion does not produce any CO - hydrocarbons and oxygen in, CO2 and H2O out. CxHy + (x+y/4) O2 -> xCO2 + y/2 H2O I'd have to know which part of my former post you are referring to to give you an answer! I understand, no problem! I have to think about that
Ok, I appreciate the interest and I'll keep it simple. Does the co2 coming out of a vw jetta clean tdi increase or reduce after combustion? Has it reversed the concept of car pollution? Is it going to replace oxygen masks? Has the world ended last December and I was brought back to the future in a flipping vw jetta?
I don't really care about VW Jetta's and diesel tdi's as they're nothing to do with F1 so I'll stay out of that conversation! All I will say is that whether people like it or not, small capacity turbo engines are where the future lies for F1. (And like it or not, it's where the imminent future of road cars lies also!). To all those complaining about the noise of these engines (or lack of it!), get used to it because it's going to happen! So far these engines have only been heard on test rigs and that's no guarantee of just how they will sound once fitted into the cars with proper tuned exhausts fitted, so it might be an idea to hold fire with the condemnations until the final product actually hits the tarmac! I seem to recall, the 2.4 V8's were going to be the death of F1 according to some, with too little power and a dreadful soundtrack, and yet strangely, we all got used to it and it became the norm. Be grateful F1 hasn't been forced to become Formula E, with 22 silent electric cars whooshing past lap after lap with barely any noise! - now there's a series that I suspect is going to have some serious problems capturing the imagination of Motor-sport fans!
All that really says is that the air is fncked in Beijing. BTW: I run a Mazda 6 diesel. Have done ~12,000km's now and the exhaust is spotless on the inside ... looks like a brand new pipe still, but I still do not believe the air it exhausts is cleaner than the air it sucks in, even in Sydney. Maybe less particles but not cleaner. Plus you couldn't work in an enclosed area with these engines running as surely O2 would depleat and be replaced by CO2 or CO?? Pete
You have do differentiate between the actual combustion process and its products... CH+O2 -> CO2 + H2O ...and the formation of the pollutants CO, HC, NO(x), soot ... which occur in quantitavely far less margins. Remember we're talking about CO2 in the range of hundreds of grams per kilometer, and pollutants in the milligram range. Of course every combustion engine will always use oxygen and hydrocarbons and release CO2 and water. That's what it does. The pollutants what we want to get rid of and what we mean when talking about "clean" engines. And you don't need rush hour in China for the particle filter to actually clean the air of particles - in your average first world city when it hasn't rained for a few days, is absolutely enough. Don't underestimate the natural amount of particles in the air.
In addition to my last post some numbers, percentage of the exhaust gas volume for a Euro3 truck Diesel engine at 1250rpm and a mean effective pressure of 2 bar: O2 14% CO2 5% CO 0.01% HC 0.005% NOx 0.06% (the rest is mainly the nitrogen of the air that passes through the engine without taking part in the combustion process)
Come on Phil, get on board and complain Its the offseason My gosh the displacement of the 2014 motors is smaller than my 500 Abarth I sold last year!!! What are they thinking lol!!!
Can't wait to say "I told you so" when these sound like **** and are 2+ seconds per lap slower than the current cars...
