A few random boxer questions....

Lenses are availaible from them.

Ferrari Lights, Lens Sets, and taillights | Squadra Nuvolari

 

Very, very few change hands. The few that do privately; in the $250K range, currently.

Based on price alone, the market tends to think so...The personalities of the two cars is quite different.

No, it depended on the market to which the car was delivered. (All Boxers were 'Euro' so to speak.)

 

They are to me. I have driven all three models on 1 day (the article was published on Ferrari Life, I can send it to you if you want), and I chose the 365BB. I have never regretted it. A friend of mine was an owner of a 512BB and my 365BB convinced him that a 365 was the way to go.

Because of the different engine, a 365 is a different experience than the 512. Very simplistically put, each successive generation of the Boxer made the car more comfortable but also less visceral. The engine became more tractable but had a lower redline in the 512BB. More torque but less frenetic. This is good to some people, and less good to me. I wanted the beast that Enzo had originally dreamt up, I wanted a car that was very different to my 550 Maranello.

So it all depends on what you want and how you drive. There are lots of people who prefer the 512BB. But I don't. I also think the 365BB is a lot prettier. Shorter rear overhang, a forward pointy stance (the 512BB is normally horizontal), and no front spoiler. Clean, pure lines. To be fair - when I didn't know the cars very well I thought the 512BB looked better. But as time progressed, I have changed my opinion. Once you own one, BTW, you will never say they look identical - I can spot a 365 from 50 yards away.

Best thing would be to drive them both, if you can arrange it.

Regarding lenses, yes they were market dependent. Italy, France, Germany all white, most other countries orange.


Onno

 

Interesting feedback Onno and I promise it wont turn into a heated debate!

For the original poster, I look at these cars differently from the perspective of a mechanic who thinks about mechanical robustness and even things that some consider charm I see as defects or poor designs. Is the 365 worth more right now? Yes does that mean it always will be or will the 512 eclipse it one day? Its possible just look at a dino 246. Things I prefer over the 512 which the OP may not be aware of that I see as defects are:

weak single disc clutch
wetsump engine
narrower rear lid and 7.5" rims all around
weaker gearbox
parts availability in general
2 rad fans like a 308
OEM exhaust availability and cost for correct 3 tip system
oil cooler availability and cost
many have had encounters with stationary objects and a lot fewer to choose from

The camminess of the 365 engine based on input over the years (I havent driven one) says they lack torque vs the 512 range.

The above info is fact not my opinion.

Not sure about the shorter overhang of the 365 vs the 512 I would like to know where thats different because I sure cant see it, must be down to the bumper. My personal preference however is the 512 wider rear wheel arches that accommodate the wider OEM rear wheels perfectly and the leading edge of the clamshell comes to a point on the 365 rather than a wide strip on the 512. They changed the shape of the back edge of the cabin to fit the new lid shape, I just think that styling change was done for a reason and it just looks better to my eye. Another thing that sticks out to me is the rear wheel look of the 365 from the front 3/4 view, the wheel looks too narrow and its relationship to the clamshell lines looks off to me im not sure why. These things may not matter to anyone but me and its just my opinion.

Where I see the 512 as an advantage is everywhere where the cars are different except current market value which could really be a big advantage to one looking for bang for your buck! Is the 512 more bang for your buck? I say absolutely without question! $100K premium is significant.

I dont look at a 512 and say wow but drop dead at the sight of a 365. They're just too similar and regardless of the model you'll still get the "hey Magnum" shout out the window at an intersection and that sucks.

Mechanically the 512 is better, cant argue that and thats what makes me lean towards a 512 over a 365.

 

Spoken like a 512 man, Newman. It is logical and I can't argue against it. Facts are facts.

But what the 512 lacks is drama. I choose the 365 because it challenges me. It is the weaker car but I don't care.

So b*gger logic. Gimme a 365 anyday.

The fact that you haven't driven one tells me all I need to know. It is in the driving that people change their minds. Or not. But at least they will know what the real difference is, rather than mechanical bits or numbers. It is about the soul. Last year, I drove the 365 on a bendy road in Scotland where the needle never dropped below 6,000 rpm for 40 miles. It was a religious experience.

And you can't argue with religious zealots. Don't you know?


Onno

BTW - no-one has ever shouted a Magnum reference to me.

 

I cant help myself I see the mechanical side of everything including my DVD player and my kids choo choo train. Thats why I gave that perspective, a different perspective because I always hear about the feelings which are subjective and not all thats important to everyone. I know the feeling youre talking about because I get it when I drive mine too its not reserved for the 365's im happy to report!

3X8 and boxer owners in North America cant avoid the Magnum comment especially if its red, its just a matter of time!

 

Newman drives his around in a Hawaiian shirt sporting a huge hairy mustache draping over his pouty lips.

Much parallel (to me) to the dozens of 911s I've owned over the years, though with a FAR longer life cycle. The rorty early 2.4s with high cam power that'd foul plugs if loafed through town was a great deal more "entertaining" than the later SCs that made most any driver feel in control.

Starting an earlier one was a mythical excercise; a later one a twist of the key.

Early ones twitchier with narrower tires. Far more rust prone with non-galvanized bodies. Et cetera. All that said:

The market pays a 3-4 time premium for the early cars. The 'experience' counts, though I wouldn't want that experience for more than about 3 hours at a time... with a month in-between. Using this comparison, the 365BB's "premium" is a bit of a bargain.

My Boxer (a lowly injected cream puff!) is always at the ready, which is what I wanted from the car. The 365 is a very special creature, with very specialized needs and specific nuances that make it what "it" is. That "it" is clearly collectible, though understandably less usable.

As Popeye says: "You takes your pick and you makes your choices."

 

We need someone to jump in and explain how the BBi is superior to all the rest!

(Not me-- I'm a died in the wool carb guy)

 

They are in many ways! They all have their pros and cons.

 

I'm sure an infomercial will be forthcoming...lol.

 

You could tell us about your experience behind the wheel of Williams injected car!

 

Phil,, from a collectable point of view i have to say that a 365 is the
only way to go, and given the choice of having one for the same price as a 512
well that would be easy,, however they have simply vanished and i suspect IF u can find
one it would be in the 200 plus arena.
Having said that , comparing a 512 bb to a bbi is a bit easier ,not long ago
i remember the car to have was the bbi ,, now perhaps its the bb,, but as far as a
collectable point i believe they are not far apart.
itf u want a car that starts easily and not very difficult to keep tuned and drive than
its the bbi,,, agree there is a bit more grunt, noise and smell to a bb,, but not all
that much to fuss about (my opinion )
pricing ,,if u want a long term sure thing buy the 365 if u can find one otherwise
the 512's are absolute great deals for what u are getting and just drive it!! who knows there may be an upside if they move in price,, historically they are half the price of a daytona so it seems logical that they should begin to rise soon.

 

We all romanticize whatever version we have, even though I am pretty sure there is consensus that they are all great.

I backed into my purchase of a BBi. I originally wanted a 365 because:

1) it had carbs and if it was '75 and no smog cert necessary in CA (very important to me being that I wanted easy ownership and carb sound.) Higher redline, that I know would accompany an otherworldly howl.

2) they are more unusual and rare

3) they seemed to have fewer Rosso Corsa and more different color choices which I preferred

4) loved the 3 taillight/exhaust look

In 4 years of looking, I didn't find one in the States that wasn't a total derelict. I to this day, and to my dismay, still have never driven one. There was one that sold at auction and got away from me shortly before I bought my BBi, and it turns out things truly do work out for the best.

My BBi was as original as I could find, in terrific shape with very low miles.

On top of that (all personal taste), to my eye the BBi has a better stance, preferred front spoiler, and the injection is reliable and bullet proof while delivering a little more torque. I have always loved the intake runners of a BBi, the downside being that the air boxes cover the valve covers.

And I just couldn't believe that the early BB powered by an engine with racing DNA was wet sump. It just didn't ever seem right to me. In some ways I got the impression that Enzo initially lost interest in the car and just said "save money." No facts there, just pure impression from reading quite a bit about the very enigmatic man.

 

William, you nailed it. I have enough fussy old cars, and twisting the key to drive the car was important. Not hacking the 'old car' stuff one bit; but this was what I wanted.

The BBi is controlled, smooth, and the torque is super fun, very manageable. I liked the NACA ducting, fenders. Though whenever I see Geno's blue 365, a haze wafts over my non-attention span and I think about stealing it.

There was indeed a time that the BBi's claimed a nice premium over carb BB's (I have to frayed old CPI guid to prove it!) and to me, desiring a driveable dream, still worth it.

Back OT, I haven't EVER seen a pristine 365 in real life. Was at the Scottsdale stuff last week and saw lots and lots and lots of cars... but not a single 365.

Saw FOUR Miuras, saw their 'clamshell' profiles opened up, saw them bring $780k-$1.1m and thought...

A Boxer at an 85% discount is somehow NOT a bargain? Hmm. Haven't seen this many "Looking for a Boxer" threads in a while. Makes sense.

 

if dick fritz were a member here...he would would tell everyone first hand which is best.

if i were a betting man...i would bet he would sway the bbi.

 

short and sweet, 365

 

HEY MAGNUM !!!!

 

Had that exact discussion with Dick Fritz.

He said, "I could have had any one of them and I choose the BBi."

That being said, my former mechanic, Charlie Pierson, said he preferred the 512BB.

But for me, he (someone who doesn't meddle with his cars too much), he recommended the BBi.

No one car can do everything. A good track car is no good for the street and visa-versa. Just like surfboards in a quiver or pistol/shotgun/CQB gun/sniper rifle in the gun cabinet. All the boxers are sweet, a well sorted 365/BB/BBi will be sure to satisfy. Find one and enjoy.

 

I wanted a 512 because of the dry sump because I drive my cars, I had a 328 and could watch the oil pressure drop in hard corners,didnt want to deal with that on a Boxer with the only option trying to bodge up some accusump mod similar used on 308s, Ferrari admitted they made a mistake not dry sumping the 365, the early 365 also had a oil starvation issue with the diff they fixed.

At the time I bought my 512 there was a black 365BB for sale for $65k but I went for a 512.

I think the 512BB is the hot rod Boxer the easiest to modify and get performance out of, if you want a more on cam engine change the camshafts and reject the carbs then you have a similar 365 type motor though with a longer stroke and with the advantage of dry sump.

 

Newman even has a Koenig kit he'd probably let you have that does exactly that!

 

Absolutely correct. The carbed 512 is the simplest to hotrod and has the foundation in place right out of the box. It's not as simple as external stuff because the measured compression ratio of the 9.2:1 engine is really 8.75:1 which limits cam selection. The CIS really limits the cams as well as the same compression ratio issue so its a double hit when it comes to modding the BBi. The CIS is costly to replace with EFI but that would turn the tables and make for a killer engine.

 

Nope it's all mine!