David Piper vs Mark Hales

I have not read the actual accounts of what action caused the Porsche engine to overrev, but most of these are caused today by mistimed downshifts. Most vintage race cars today have rev limiters installed (at least we do), but if a downshift is made at too high a road speed for the gear being selected, when the clutch is let out, the drivetrain will spin the engine up to a dangerous rpm level. Since the engine speed is being mechanically overreved, any ignition rev limiter will have no effect in preventing this from happening. Generally rev limiters will guide the driver on not overreving the engine on upshifts and may help on a missed upshift (gear in neutral when the clutch is let out and the throttle floored). I tried to explain this the best I could.

 

DWR has it exactly right. Rev limiter protects against shifts up, not shifts down. A car owner says to a borrower, a driver experienced at driving race cars on track, "the engine has a rev limit of 8500rpm, please keep the revs below 8000". Driver mistakenly downshifts to a gear that forces the engine to over-rev = bent valves, spun bearings, maybe a piston through the head etc. That's what the law calls negligence and the courts make negligent folks pay money for the damage they cause.

 

Terry, would you feel the same way if Hales entry into Woodcote corner was 25 mph too fast and he totalled the car?

 

Piper has rented his cars to other drivers in classic events over the years. I wonder what's in the contract. At one event one of his cars caught fire. Would the driver have reason to sue Piper because he didn't get sufficient track time (let alone be put in danger by the fire)?

 

Good lord. If you cram your Testarossa into 2nd gear at 150 mph and let out the clutch, what do you think is going to happen?

 

Right.

A rev limiter, by not allowing spark, turns off the explosions in the cylinder after a certain RPM. That's all it does.

A rev limiter cannot, does not, prevent the wheels from driving the engine when you *** up and stick the car in 2nd gear while the car is moving at 4th gear speeds.

 

This is of course not applicable in this case - Mark Hales is one of the most respected historic drivers on the planet and is regularly trusted to drive 250GTO's (!!) on the limit in the Goodwood Revival.


Onno

 

You are also missing out on wonderful experiences. Thanks to my friends I have been lucky enough to drive some amazing machines, and it has been a pleasure to let others drive mine. Because we both share, we have some insurance that we will treat each other's cars with respect. But even so, many people that do not own Ferraris themselves have driven my cars. I just love sharing the experience. And I have become a much better driver watching other experienced people drive my classic Ferraris.

Life is a lot less fun when all you think about is what can go wrong. In fact, an equally good argument can be made not to get out of the house in the morning. Yet we never think about that. And I am certainly not cancelling my upcoming safari trip because Africa can kill you.

I'm not saying it's wrong not to let others drive your car. But I think the rationale for it is rather shaky as we take risks of equal proportion every day that we're usually not even aware of.


Onno

 

10 years (or so) ago a very good UK-racing driver rented Piper`s 917 for a race in Kyalami - and crashed!
He was charged 100% (GBP 50,000) by Piper for the rebuild.

("Motorsport is dangerous..." etc., etc., etc., ...)

 

In this case Hales was insured for that as according to the transcript of the judgement, the Octane insurance covered accident damage not mechanical failure.

 

By the way what did Hales pay Piper 3.000 plus euro for when using the Porsche? Was that a rental agreement?

 

A few key things according to the court documents:
It was a business transaction, Hale rented the car so he could write a story and make money. It was not simply a case of a friend letting a friend drive a car, nor was it equivalent to a rich guy letting a pro race his car at Goodwood.
Hale admitted he missed a shift. Simple. His claims of a defective gearbox were not proven and in fact countered by the likes of Atwood.
Even though it is not the consensus amongst the internet crowd and those who hope some day to drive a rich guys car it seems clear Hale owes.

I owned a Group C2 LeMans car that the previous owner had let a "friend" I'll call "Roland" take out for a few laps. This guy "Roland", even though he claimed to have raced LeMans himself, missed a gear and blew the engine. "Roland" tucked his tail between his legs and ignored his "friend" from then on, not offering to help at all with the damages while claiming a "defective" shifter. The shifter was tricky, but not defective. The owner sucked it up and that was the end of that.

I was tracking a friend's old 911 race car once and the engine blew. I hadn't missed a shift but I was driving it hard. I let him keep a truck of mine he had borrowed. Better to stay friends.

I got the chance to drive a McLaren F1 at the limit on a race track for as many laps as I wanted. The car had no insurance and I knew it. A simple "off" could have meant hundreds of thousands of dollars. The experience to me was worth the risk and I took it. I was fully prepared to pay any damages I might cause, even though that could reduce me to zero in a $3,000,000 car. If I had destroyed the car would I have regretted it the rest of my life? Yes. But I didn't, and that was one of the greatest days ever.

 

This is all about insurance and the dangers of being an independent contractor. Of course, Hales should be responsible to Piper to fix the damage caused by Hale's actions while driving Piper's car. Had Hales been a staff writer for the magazines, he would have been covered by the magazine's insurance policies protecting him from any liability resulting from his actions on behalf of the magazine (i.e., crashing or otherwise damaging cars driven in connection with writing articles for the magazine). However, since Hales was an independent contractor, it was up to him to either put in his contract with the magazines that purchased his articles a provision requiring them to indemnify him for any losses resulting from the test drives, or to obtain his own insurance. Hales choose to do neither and instead "self insured" (likely because the former would have been difficult to negotiate with the magazines and the latter was too expensive, given how little the magazines pay for freelance articles) and is now bearing the consequences of that decision.

This point is discussed in the Harris article linked above:

This brings us to insurance.

It is possible to insure yourself to drive a Porsche 917 at Cadwell Park. Agree a sum, prove it's insured, go and skid the 917 around Cadwell for the day. Sounds simple, doesn't it?
It isn't. Firstly, the cost of this type of insurance is astronomical relative to the financial reward for a freelance journalist or publication.

Here's an example. Last year I drove a NobleM600 and an Ariel Atom at the Nurburgring. Covering the Noble alone cost £1,500, and that was with a generous discount. That covered £150K, with a maximum payout of £130K and a £20K excess. The Atom was insured for less, but still carried a £7.5K excess and a £540 premium.

I control my video budget and I thought it worth investing in, partly because I felt I was doing something a magazine publisher would never have the conkers to attempt.

But the cars were not adequately covered, were they? It's pretty easy to do £20K of damage to a Noble M600, and that was the excess, so what would have happened if I had ended up owing either Noble or the insurance company that sum of money? I'd have had to pay it. As you pile down the main straight at 200mph, that thought crystalises your resolve for the kink. Would Noble pursue me for that money? I hope not, but I'd be mad to assume that they wouldn't.

 

I've seen many people change their thinking after first blood.

 

What you say makes a great deal of sense but from my reading of the judgement Octane did insure the car however inadequately........ To me this is the gap in the story..... Did Mark / Octane believe they were fully insured against all eventualities ? What was Piper told prior to the test ? I am obviously wrong but I would have thought that by the act of insuring the car Octane were responsible for any shortfall or lack of pay out.....

 

It seems someone's started a fund to help Hales fix the 917. Quite amusing:

Fix David Piper's Porsche 917 | Indiegogo

 

Not amusing....Its a bloody good idea. We all enjoy watching these cars race and reading about them. Willing to bet the fund is over subscribed. Thanks for the link.

 

Hale and Octane may have their own issues, but Hale made it clear to Piper that driver error was covered. It wasn't.

8. There is no dispute that (1) the Claimant checked with the Defendant that his car had been insured, albeit the policy was not available to be produced, and the Defendant understood this to cover damage caused by river error but not mechanical defect; (2) before he went off on his own, after a photo shoot, to test the car the Defendant was specifically instructed by the Claimant and Mr Webb, to ensure that the care was not over revved beyond 7,000 RPM by missing the synchromesh gears, otherwise the engine would break as notoriously happened in 1970 involving Jo Siffert and then Vic Elford when the Porsche team lost two 917’s at Le Mans. The Defendant accepts that
he gave this assurance as he was ‘not competing and was not under pressure to deliver a fastest lap.’

 

I also believe it to be a good idea, and will be contributing. I find it amusing in the best possible way - car guys helping out a car guy.

 

In the words of the Chris Rea classic "

And the perverted fear of violence
Chokes the smile on every face
And common sense is ringing out the bell
This ain't no technological breakdown
Oh no, this is the road
Said this is the road

LITIGATION is the road to Hell

 

Bit profound from you ! ...lol

 

Careful Pistonheads have taken down a couple of links to unsubstantiated funds. I believe Track driver magazine is organising more seriously. You can buy copies of his latest book Passion for Speed with Nick Mason with all profits going to help Hales.

Edit for link


www.trackdriver.com/mark_hales_appeal.php

 

I found my link through Jalopnik. Chris Rea's apparently linked to it so I guess it is legit..

 

+1

The 917's are notorious for lunching their engines, as noted by Ludvigsen in his magnificent Porsche book and many other pieces of literature. Would that the engine have been threatening to let go and he sent Hales out to drive and it did, would he not be at least partially responsible ?.

I guess as ever make sure you get insurance coverage OR a signed waiver stating any mechanical breakage will be paid for by the owner OR dont borrow the car.

When reading C & SC or other classic car mag's it is noted that they often state they will only take the car to 6/10's or 7/10's to ensure they dont break it, probably fair enough. I also get the feeling that not much is gained from a track test of a 40 year old racing car that may or may not be set up and driven exactly like the original. An in depth driving memory of the car from one of the original racers like Attwood or Redman would be sufficient and insightful enough ?.

 

Your view is extremely one sided and I for one do NOT believe the engine would have failed if Piper himself was driving as he has experience with the gear change.

I have a lot of respect for Hales, he respects old cars, but he admitted to missing a gear. That is what caused the failure. And has been repeated many times he was instructed to and agreed to keep it below 7000 rpm, and he didn't. Oh and Piper exercises his cars hard and often ... it would not have been a 40 year old engine!

In the end I do not understand why the car was not properly insured for this test?. TopGear could not drive a 250GTO Ferrari because they could not afford the insurance, why was this test not insured?? Makes no sense.

Piper is to a mega rich car collector, yes he has some money but he is an old race driver that has kept these cars from new. It a pity the law was involved but one assumes other avenues were exhausted.
Pete