David Piper vs Mark Hales

I wonder if that statement was truly from the legal team. "Judgment" and "judgement" are used interchangeably. They are different words. Judgment refers to the court's decision; judgement refers to what we hope to exercise.

 

Thank you for highlighting the error although the non legal additional "e" does depend on where you live

 

Another freelancer with Octane and friend of Hales, Dickie Meaden, tweeted last night that people shouldn't be blaming Octane in this, and pointed out that Hales is still working with them. He also said there is more to come out of the woodwork in this case.

 

As far as I know from the www a 917 has max HP at around 7800 rpm. Then there is some extra rpm possible without direct damage, but that is under load. A misshift is high rpm but no load on the engine so what you get is floating valves. I have been there, done that with Alfa racing engine, and the only damage I got was bend valves, even no piston damage.
In the worst case , considering the power involved , a straightforward rebuild is in order with newe pistons and valves, but no more. More damage means there was more trouble allready piling up... And even if, the total amount for the rebuild calculated seems a bit ( understatement) over the top for me... Parts are not made of gold, new pistons can be made up for around 200 a piece, any piston manufacturer can do that. ( and one probably will..)

Main problem is a judge without any technical knowledge and too much attitude to admit.
Sorry for the journalist it went this way but he should have arranged his own insurance...expensive lesson I am afraid.

 

I doubt we know even half the story.

 

Last of the summer wine - have a look at photo 2!

Can historic racing survive? - Telegraph

 

Stupid title for the article as this case has absolutely no bearing on RACING at all. Racing is all owners risk and always has been.

Unless you rent a car of course ... then it has always been on the renter.
Pete

 

You may be correct in what you say.

The absolute was always, bin it - buzz the engine - you own it.

Never ever, have heard anyone dispute this.



[if you think there is a problem that you can't manage then park it pronto]

 

What about the mention of professional drivers appointed by Goodwood to owners? Or are professional drivers always insured for damage (I can imagine something like that, especially for test drivers). So why would it be impossible for Mark Hales to obtain such an insurance like the article suggests?

Just curious and would appreciate someone knowledgable to chime in (not saying you're not knowledgable Pete!)

 

Spoken to my broker. All race policies have a general exclusion for mechanical failure. Theoretically you can get additional cover for engine and gear box but in practice this is very very difficult and would operate rather like a manufacturers extended warranty for newer cars a would require an approved specialist to maintain the car.

Like many, I have lent and used cars under a "gentlemen's" agreement with people I know and trust. This event has made me and a lot of others think about having matters clearly documented. A sad day for historic racing but a reflection of the "blame culture"

Does anyone know if Pipes 917 was serviced by a recognised Porsche dealer in accordance with recommendations and that the service book was stamped up to date ?

Kim

 

There is a very informative article written by Andrew English in the Daily Telegraph today....page 13 Motoring section.The entire page. I'm sure its probably online for overseas interest. Not agreeing or disagreeing with the content but English claims that after the engine was rebuilt Piper sold the car for GBP 1.3 Mill.......Interesting quotes from Insurance brokers and independent lawyers also.

 

I am probably being totally naive but it seems to me that the insurance cover criteria is fundamenatlly wrong. However I have been thinking what the outcome would have been if as a result of the gearbox malady the car had crashed and completely burned out...unrecognisable and to quote...beyond economic repair...... Surely then the insurers would have had no choice but to pay out the insured sum less the excess......The fact it didn't is to everyones advantage other than Mark Hales...Hypothetical I realise but just a thought.

 

See post #81 for link to the Telegraph article.

 

So are the London bookies taking bets on Piper making an appearance at the FoS this year?

 

From the Telegraph article, the following is interesting:

"While the car was insured on the day by Octane magazine, that cover didn’t extend to damage to the engine or transmission following mechanical or electrical breakdown or missed gears. Our research among leading race-car insurers this week suggests that this form of insurance simply doesn’t exist."

 

Didn't see link...As is the way today it obviously appeared on line prior to print

 

The only thing that needs to "come out of the woodwork" is a CHECK for the amount of damages - Hales is financially over-his-head. The guy needs money. What more is there to say, or do, in the matter for Octane? Either they financially support Hales, or they don't.

If Octane were the fiscal equivalent of, say, Car and Driver, this might have been paid already.

 

Octane is owned by Dennis Publishing, right?

Felix Dennis wears jewelry worth far more than this case. Lack of depth of pocket for Octane compared to other mags is not the issue.

I would really love to know the overall internal state of the engine.

There is no state of damage that would leave a 917 uneconomical to restore. Burn it , roll it up, melt it down... Something will remain from which to rebuild even if its just a small charred chunk.


Terry

 

Did not see this and was not aware that they did this. IMO if you enter a car in a race and agree to have a professional driver drive it, as with all racing the onus of ALL costs are on the owner.

But racing is racing and testing a car is very different story. And yes I would also like to hear from more knowledgeable people on this.
Pete

 

Octane's response;

http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/news/octanenews/287827/mark_hales_and_david_piper_court_case.html

 

Now I am even more puzzeld...rebuild of the engine ost 38.000 uero, taking out , shipping and putting back in makes it around 40.000 euro. There is a claim on Mark for 110.000 BP? Makes around 140000 euros. So were did the 100000 euro go? All legal fees?..stupid.

 

Yep legal fees, he has to pay his own costs, Piper's costs and court costs.

 

Interesting to read that the 917 was a replica?
Does not change the engine costs but sets the whole case in a different perspective.

Ciao
Oscar

 

The point is, if you take on anything like this you have to able to afford to lose. I feel sorry for Mark Hales, but reading the various stuff, he admitted in writing early on that there was no apparent fault with the car before the incident and that the damage was caused by his failure to select the gear properly. Regardless of anything else, he would have been better to have accepted that would make it very difficult for him to win any legal case and thus to have taken the pain of paying for the rebuild but avoid all the legal fees.

I think some of the comments about David Piper in this thread and elsewhere are grossly unfair. If I were to borrow someone's car I would expect to pay if I did any damage (that was clearly the arrangement here hence the insurance - as I understand it, arranged by Octane in lieu of some or part of the fee for them to use the resulting article on a non-exclusive basis). Therefore the only question was whether the damage was something that was gonig to happen anyway and Mark Hales was just unlucky to be in the car at that point or whether it was caused by his error. Since he admittted the latter in writing shortly after the incident that seems clear cut in terms of moral obligation regardless of the legal question which, as we know, has been resolved in David Piper's favour.

I'm not really sure why it should. As I understand it the car is made up from a lot of original parts and seems to have the same foibles as any entirely original car.

Jonathan

 

For many of us, there are rights and wrongs on both sides, and I for one would not want to cast aspersions on either David Piper or Mark Hales. What doesn't go away, is that Mark is potentially financially broken and for those of us who have encountered him, this is something that no-one wants.

It is no good beating our chests and expressing words of sympathy - something has to be done to help the financial plight of a man I know to be someone who treats cars sympathetically, is a really nice guy and for the record, if he did over-rev the engine, did not do it whilst treating the car in an abusive manner. At worst, a really good motoring journalist made a mistake.

There are many who read this site who can easily afford to help Mark, however small that donation might be. Then there are those of us who have had Mark drive and write about their cars and in the process, probably enhance the reputation of the car (in my case, Mark raced my SWB with Stirling Moss in the very 1st TT Revival at Goodwood). Surely the many of us who have these special cars can offer some greater level of support in this case - in short, if a hundred such owners got together we could surely put a huge dent in Mark's costs, along with the hundreds of other well meaning donations.


So come on all you Journalists who read this. Help us help Mark by getting that oft talked about fund properly publicised. Contact some owners who you know have dealt pleasantly with Mark over the years and seek a proper donation on his behalf. Don't just write about it, let's DO something to help him.

Again, let me reiterate, this is not about David being wrong or Mark being right; it is about a really unfortunate situation that has probably been badly handled by both sides and reached a point where one of the parties is going to be financially damaged - heavily.

A fund for Mark has been created on the web site for Track Driver. I have visited it and am about to contribute. Please can you not only do likewise, but use your best efforts to get others who sympathise with what has happened to do so as well.

Clive Beecham