Should Spares Convey?

This is in response to another thread here in vintage regarding a spare part that didn't convey with a car. The spare, now separated from the car, is being offered by the person who previously sold the car and retained it. Without knowing the details of that transaction, I just think it's an interesting and worthwhile discussion (which the OP in the other thread doesn't want cluttering up his for sale thread).

Should spares convey with the vehicle?

When we sell a car, ALL spares are included in the price and convey. They're inventoried and the spares list is provided to the seller as part of the offering. Thus, the package is complete and truly "race ready" in the case of a race car. The price, of course, is adjusted to reflect the cost of the spares, which can be several hundreds of thousands in value today. Spare wheels? Engines? Bare blocks? Body parts? Suspension and brakes? They all have a significant dollar value.

Obviously, at one time, spare parts were probably considered "throw aways" and were discarded or walked out the back of the shop, but now that spares are as valuable as they are (thousands for a widget), this presents some awkward situations, I would think. If I were the buyer of a car that the seller retained parts from and then tried to sell later, I might be quite upset. If people are buying a car, shouldn't that include all the original equipment? And, given the push by Classiche to be as "original" as they came out the factory doors, the importance of the original (or other spares) may be increasing.

CW

 

spares have nothing to do with a sale of a complete car regardless of vintage, spares have a value separate from a complete car... as part of full disclosure I think they can be offered separately to a purchaser, it then would be his choice to buy separately or not...

 

Car = A. Spares = B. Car and Spares Package = C.

A + B = C.

B = C - A.

A = C - B.

 

Good points, and there can always be two prices and an "available under separate contract" agreement, but how does that play out years down the road with subsequent owners who had no knowledge of the separation but may now want (or need) the spares that would have conveyed?

Not to mention, once the spares are separated, it's unlikely they'll ever be reunited in total. Speaking from experience, trying to put a spares package together on a car can be an expensive, extended process, and purchasing a complete package, if available, will always make more sense to me (as a racer). And, I wouldn't even seriously deliberate on a more modern race car without the spares package. C is thus likely more valuable than the sum of the parts (A + B) because of that.

CW

 

..Conversely, C could actually be worth less. I'd want a discount if buying the car and the spares.

 

I like the above...... but what about:

"D"=the parts that were to be thrown out after the restoration, ie. worn out brake hoses, some scrap sheet metal, "ol fuel lines, mouse trap type valve springs that were too worn for racing but were OK for maybe moderate use in the car, etc.. where does one draw the line??? Is this scrap or?

 

Okay, but if said car is worth $X and said doodad is worth $Y, then car and doodad together are worth, at a minimum, $X + $Y. And, to argue for a discount almost guarantees the spares will be split apart.

CW

 

The above would be determined by the strength of the market for the items for sale and the negotiating skills of the buyer and seller.

 

There are some (well I know at least one) who remove original parts and replace with modern copies. As such they have a warehouse full of parts removed from cars they are selling and all of you call him when you need something. So on one hand he is destructive and on the other hand useful for all and sundry.

 

Well, let's say the seller doesn't disclose that there are bits in a cardboard box in the attic that came off the car when it raced at Le Mans in 19xx. How is a buyer to know even to ask? A buyer, once informed, could certainly say they're not interested, but breaking the connection between the car and these bits might be regretted by subsequent buyers down the line.

CW

 

This is an increasingly common practice in the vintage/historic racing world, as owners are seeking to preserve and protect the original bits. So, the question becomes what is the "complete" or "original" car? Just because the car starts and rolls down the road without things falling off doesn't mean the car is correct.

I would think it semi-dishonest to sell the car yet retain the original bits.

CW

 

Determined by the sales and communication skills of the buyer and seller.

 

That's pretty vague, don't you think?

CW

 

I have a set of springs for a 512S in my parents' garage, would it be wrong to ask money for them?

 

And, how did they come to be in your parents' garage?

CW

 

Given to me when I helped clean out an old garage.

 

No. If the seller does not communicate that the box of spares in the attic is for sale, then how will a buyer know? A buyer with good communication skills however may recognise the seller's poor communication and be inqusitive enough to ask what else the seller has for sale or if there are any spares for the car.

 

Judge,

Okay, so someone, somewhere had these in their garage. And, they presumably came off a car at some point. Or were spares (maybe NART or another team). So, the current owner of the car they came off might like or need them. But, of course, he doesn't even know they exist.

The real question, and this is probably lost to time, is where they came from, how they were split apart and how they ended up in some random garage somewhere. If someone nicked them, then they are the property of someone else, but good luck establishing that. If they were given away (or purchased), then they're a gift (or property) and you're free to do as you please. Although, the owner of the car might not have approved or known about that gift at the time (or maybe they did, to the detriment of future owners). There are just too many unanswered and unanswerable questions.

But, in the case of someone who's selling a car that has spare or original parts removed from it and placed in storage but doesn't convey them when they sell the car, there's something not right in that to me. People's memories aren't perfect, and things somehow slip through due to forgetfulness. Or parts sometimes disappear out of the warehouse. It happens. But, when you know something belongs with the car and doesn't disclose and convey? And, given the value of some of these parts, we're not just talking pennies.

CW

 

That's still a bit, um, short of the best ethical conduct, IMO.

If the seller doesn't disclose any spares, the buyer has to inquire? But, playing along with that, so let's say the buyer isn't forthcoming when they receive an inquiry. Or, perhaps, they merely forget about a part that was removed and stored. What then? Buyer happily goes off unaware and leaves parts behind. And, it's not like a buyer is going to root through someone's garage for a box of old take-offs, are they? It's not like they can just get permission to have a look round the nooks and crannies for parts that might belong to this particular car. It would seem that they're almost slapping a seller in the face that they're being dishonest. Wouldn't it?

CW

 

The car and the spares are different items and have value. A+B = C blah blah blah. I think your argument may be that the spares should be given away free with the car and that the seller has a duty to do so?

 

Yes

 

I guess this is based upon the "belly pan" thread post..
IMO that was not so much a "spare" as it was a missing part that no one realized, or cared, was missing.

That is quite different from my definition of spares, as I could sell someone a complete 308GTB, and still have three hoods, multiple turn signals, front valence, battery covers, door sill trim plates and so forth..

These were never "on the car" but were picked up at my own expense.

I would certainly offer them if buyer was interested, but would not give them away.

 

Race cars have spares as they need them...street cars are a different thing as we all recognize, to clarify MY post above.

It is a good discussion.

To the point WHY keep something once you do not need it?

 

I just completed a 6-figure restoration. I removed a large number of parts that were newer than the build year. Some are still useful to a buyer, if he is less concerned about strict "originality". I also have 2 spare nearly complete motors, transmissions, etc. (in pieces). Also kept every piece removed if it was not of suitable quality for the restored object.
In my opinion, this all coveys automatically to a buyer, included in the offering price, unless he says I don't want it. And the price does not go down if the buyer says no thanks. Seems slightly unethical to do otherwise to me. All of course, IMHO....

 

I wouldn't say they need to be given away freely, but my point is that the bits and parts that BELONG with the car ought to stay with the car. I wouldn't call it a duty, either. It's just the proper thing to do, but that's just my opinion.

Someone raised the point that a race car's spares are different than a street car's. To which, I agree. And, what good is a race car without spares? But, a race car's spares package can be in the hundreds of thousands. Motors, transmissions and the whole nine yards. Our cars have spares packages either acquired with the car or accumulated over time that are in sea-cargo shipping containers. If you want to do anything more than look at the car in your garage, you want and need these spares. And, over time, these bits become rarer, perhaps more desirable and more valuable.

But, I was kind of surprised that people feel it's okay if take-offs or spares for a street car aren't included. For example, the aforementioned 375 belly pan. Or, say, a bumper. Or, a removable hardtop. Or, additional sets of wheels. Or, whoknowswhat.

Thanks for the discussion on this, though. It's interesting to hear the different viewpoints on it. None of which I vehemently disagree with.

CW