550 Engine Removal

It will be interesting to know which material they are. From all the books 550 had alloy and 456 had alloy (2.7 motronic cars) and steel (5.2 motronic and all M versions).


We have changed from coolant changes every 2 years to every year because of so many radiator problems. Really makes me wonder about the levels or quality of corrosion inhibitors in the coolant we are getting.

 

None of that is very good news. I just have not seen that on any of the other alloy liners. I have a set here from a 328 motor. Except for the stains from the antifreeze dye the entire outer surface looks like new.

 

When you say lack of pressurization I am far more concerned with the caps. They are such bad quality I buy them by the bag full. I almost never do a service where they pass a pressure test.

I have looked a little for a better quality (American made) replacement but have not had success so far.

And as for low temp. The V8's with alloy cylinders run much cooler. So do the TR's for that matter.

 

Ron, I'm guessing that hot spot cavitation certainly was a factor, and may have been the root cause, but I'm also thinking that Mahle probably had some sort of surface coating (anodizing perhaps?) on the outer surface of the liners, and once that coating was damaged, it allowed the corrosion to start. I'd definitely get Mahle's opinion on this, though. Brian, are you aware if Mahle have any sort of treatment on the outer liner surfaces?

Maybe a dumb question, but once you take off the water manifolds (items 35 & 39) under the intake manifolds in this diagram: Ferrari Parts, Ferrari Accessories, and Ferrari Performance Products - Ricambi America, Inc. could you have put a borescope in the individual ports to look at the liners? On Cat's engines there were water jacket inspection ports, but of course these were much larger engines, with better access for maintenance, etc.

 

Sorry, I should have been clearer with my question.

Assuming an engine is still together and someone is doing a "major". Could they pull off the water manifolds, stick a borescope in there and be able to see the liner surfaces?

Re: your question: I think the bubbles explode toward the surface with the greatest heat (or maybe they've just "evolved" and know which way to explode where they'll have the greatest effect, sorta like a shaped charge )

 

No coating I am aware of. The old 328 liners I have look like new. I know bead blasting and all manner of cleaning has been done to liners and then reused over the years and I have never seen or heard of any trouble from corrosion.


I dont know about the coolant passage design in the head castings but the passages at the deck on the upper portion are a series of approx 7mm holes, one near each head stud.
I don't think you are getting a bore scope down there.



Of all the 456's and 550's on the road and all of the years they have been out there and this is the first any have seen or heard of this?
This is not a pattern failure or we would already know about it.
This particular car had something happen to it. No coolant changes, bad water source, something. It might happen to others that experienced the same mis servicing but this is not going to be a widespread problem.


Header failures, valve guide failures, catalytic converter failures, connecting rod failures, advanced cylinder wear on 355's. We knew about all of that long before those cars went out of production and that was a production span of less than 4 years. 456 started using those cylinder liners 20 years ago and that is assuming whatever happend here is applicable only to 456/550 liners.

 

Could the wrong type of coolant cause this.

some kind of electrolysis??

 

Brian- Part of the problem is nowhere in the owners manuals or WSM manuals of these cars does it call for replacing the coolant. It is possible this car ran for years on its original coolant depending on who serviced her. Combine that with a lot of short trips that did not get the water and oil up to temperature, and you have a possible scenario for what Ron is seeing.

So are the liners steel or aluminum alloy? Just the weight should be a pretty good indicator and lack of response to the magnet another. Cast iron is about 2-3 times denser than aluminum.

 

I agree. It used to be a standard 2 year item. That speaks to taking the car to a real live Ferrari mechanic and not some dude at the local repair shop. Those of us that have a clue know about it.

As far as this car having a corrosion issue what surprises me is he actually got the heads off. You can ask any Ferrari mechanic over 35 years old and he can tell you of nightmare scenarios of getting heads off. Corrision on these motors usually first manifests itself between the steel studs and the aluminum heads. I guess the head gaskets kept it out of there.

That situation is going to get far worse with the factory paid for services. The shops will only be paid for the minimal and we will see a lot of 10 and 15 year old Ferraris that are just trashed. Thats ok though. All the new cars components look like they are made in China so the cars wont last anyway. The 599 doesn't even have coolant drains and the hoses enter the rad mid way up on the side. Short of turning the car upside down there is no way to really drain it. And the radiator? It looks like it came in a box of parts to build a cheapo kit car.



The liners are aluminum.

 

If that is the case and I see no reason to disagree, I wonder if Redline water wetter and its surface tension reducing properties would be a benefit?


I have an adaptor and would be happy to test the cap if you want to send it to me.

 

With little to add I'm lurking on this thread. Seems to me this could be another skunkworks project. It would only take some welding to either build a new tank with real cap or take an existing and modify it.

What amazing pictures. I have never seen anything like that but I have not torn down that motors. 90% of my jobs were always to tear down and build hotter not remediation.

Dave...I have been doing annual all fluids flush except engine oil which is more othe blue BMW coolant because my BMW's get it. In the racecar water and water wetter but it never sees less than 32 degrees. Some, maybe john, are using that coolant additive can't remember the name because their systems were running too hot in the Texas summer. It may be important to rethink that or investigate the additives package.

Like Brian said this is not being seen in the fleet despite coolant maintainance all over the map. One could guess that the average prestone is being used and that it protects reasonably well. This one car may have some things special going on. My vote would be for lack of maintenance and low pressure in the system making matters worse. Very interesting thread. Thanks to the op for posting it.

 

The pressure cap adaptor has a Jeep application. 2 radiator shops and 1 parts house have not been able to ID by eyeball.
I really need to just sit down in the back room of a parts house opening boxes but have not taken the time to do so.




I am thinking name brand coolant, good water, watter wetter, good pressure cap and annual changes should be a good recipe to avoid this.

 

It would be a piece of cake to weld on a billet neck, I had several of them but I gave all that away when I sold the race car. There's nothing wrong with the tank itself and replicating it would be a waste of time.

You can put any cap you want on it.
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And then we can be welding new neck on every car?


No thanks. I'll look for a better cap.


Im funny that way. Easy fixes make more sense to me.

 

We know from past experiences that this combo works well!

 

I'm pretty sure some Volvo's use the same cap but then its probably made by the same company.

 

I have heard that too.

If it was the Volvo of old it would be a lifetime cap but their experience of the 242's lasting so long and not breaking almost put them out of business so they developed a new business plan.

 

Not to sidetrack this great thread, but I was a Water Wetter fan for years, with all my cars until I saw what came out of my 550's coolant after only six months (see pic below, and Google "Water Wetter brown slime"). I'd never seen this or heard of it, but apparently it's a well known problem with Water Wetter under certain conditions.

The Water Wetter apparently didn't like my 550, or the Prestone 50/50 premix, or the very hot running conditions of summer in Houston TX. Eliminated the Water Wetter, and went with only the Prestone Premix and everything stayed clean. Recently changed to pure RO water + NoRosion and everything has been clean with that also. The one downside of the pure water is that there's no boiling point elevation or freezing point reduction with it, so you're really dependent on having a good radiator cap to maintain pressure. And even that model goes out the window as soon as you shut the car down and lose your system pressure, and the engine sits there and heat soaks for the next 10-15 minutes........ Those are the conditions that scare me.
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