What is the cap pressure supposed to be? I don't remember seeing it on the cap.
Fascinating In a morbid but instructional way. Our race shop guy will never use WaterWetter and if he does, he wants to get it out of the car ASAP. Claims it doesn't get on well with aluminum. Philip
Dave- Weird measurement, when they could have just used millibars so it is obvious it is just below 1 atmosphere.
Terry, I was being facetious to FFB. I probably should have put a smiley in there. The WSM actually says 1kg/cm2 but you're right, they could have said 1 atm.
Hmmmm, I put Redline water wetter in my 550 a couple of years ago, and it coated the expansion tank with reddish slime, some of which is still there after two coolant flushes.... Stefano
Sorry, I don't see the logic in your argument. Why wouldn't a basically clean, fairly clear fluid be OK? That's the way it went in, when new right? Unless the cooling system is in poor shape, it ought to come out that way. But that's semantics - the color did surprise me, but it's the consistency of the stuff that really bothered me. As Stefano mentioned, it had the consistency of a reddish brown slime. "Maybe" that's not bad, but I don't want it in my cooling system.
That's right John, a red-brownish deposit. According to Redline this is due to a reaction with the anti-corrosion package in some coolants (e.g. the green Glycoshell I was using). But I don't want slime in my cooling system!! Stefano
The reason is that perhaps it is "cleaning" out the coolant system - slime however is another story. Clear and clean could be straight water - and that is definitively not a good thing (cavitation /corrosion). I used to use distilled water all the time for all my cars, until I read in the Mercedes-Benz manual that distilled water should be avoided, as they water will try to "balance" its minerals by "pulling" them from the engine - hence, normal (dirty) tap water is better. What does everyone here use?
In my 550 I run RO (reverse osmosis) purified water and a product called No-Rosion, which has the necessary corrosion inhibitor package, plus lubricants for the water pump & seals, and similar, but not the same surfactants and wetting agents as Water Wetter. No, I am not trying to be a poster child for No-Rosion, but I've found it to be an excellent product during my short term usage of it. The switch to pure RO water helped drop my excessively high engine outlet temperature (due to pure water's higher coefficient of specific heat than 50/50 coolant), and the No-Rosion has ensured that all the metals in the cooling system are protected. Here's a clear, readable article on why pure water is a superior heat transfer fluid to 50/50: Things you should know about coolant ? hellafunctional. I've been preaching this same sermon for years, but this guy's version is much easier to read than mine. However it also points out that pure water needs a corrosion inhibitor package and other additives to be safe and effective in our cooling systems. That's where No-Rosion or other similar products come in.
Yes, you can't beat pure water for cooling power! Lubrication shouldn't be an issue on the 550, as the water pump's gasket is ceramic. The only concerns are anti-freeze and anti-corrosion... Stefano
I don't know what you guys are mixing it with but we have used water wetter in a few models that have marginal cooling systems since they invented the stuff with zero problems. I have an 84 308 out there with over 130,000 miles that has had water wetter in it since near new. In all the years of servicing that car we have had zero cooling system trouble except a couple of water pumps and 2 rehosing jobs. I had to have a head off a few years ago and the interior of the cooling jackets looked like new. It was specifically formulated to be used in aluminum and compatible with a very wide range of plastics used in waterpumps and radiators. It was originally invented for racing motorcycles.
Pretty odd to see what you're describing. I've been using Red Line Water-wetter in my 365bb for easily 10 years. I've never seen any slime, sludge or brown poo. As for coolant used; typically either HondaCool or more likely BMW anti-freeze.
Found this article, "Cavitation the Complete Guide", feel free to read the whole article, interesting section copied, last sentence - highlights danger of short trips. Combine that with a week expansion tank pressure cap could be a recipe for problems. Beware , article is for diesel engines? Regards, Ron Cavitation Article Q: That's great, we know what cavitation is now, so what do we do about it??? A: Cavitation is not reversible. Once it has begun to eat metal away, it can be stopped though. To keep the coolant from eating away the metal cylinder wall we must treat our engines with a simple chemical called an SCA (System Cooling Additive) or DCA (Diesel Cooling Additive). What this chemical does is bond with all the metal walls in the engine. Cavitation still occurs, but now it will eat this chemical off the wall instead of eating the metal off the wall. This article is directed toward older IDI engines manufactured by Navistar International. Newer engines usually come with cavitation protection from the factory with the use of extended life coolants such as Ford's new Gold Coolant. Here is some simple advice about how to treat your engine to prevent any harm. If you have no clue what type of coolant you have or what's going on with your engine coolant, drain and flush your cooling system. You need to find old style ethylene glycol antifreeze, it's the green stuff. It also needs to be the low silicate formula, if you don't use low silicate formula, the silicates will mix with your SCAs and create a really nasty sludge in your radiator and it'll destroy your cavitation protection and probably your radiator. A perfect example of what is needed is FLEETRITE Antifreeze. FLEETRITE is sold at International parts dealers and probably other places. You will need 4 gallons of FLEETRITE. (you can find better buys than fleetrite, just make sure it is green LOW SILICATE antifreeze, if it doesn't specifically say low silicate, then it isn't) Next, go to Ford and buy 2 bottles of VC-8, previously known as FW-16, this is your SCAs. Sometimes you may also to buy the SCAs you need at the International dealer, it'll be called DCA-4, they don't always have it in stock though. You can also buy them from Fleetguard/Cummins and it will be called DCA-4 as well. Then go to the grocery store and buy 4 gallons of distilled water. It MUST be distilled water, this can't be stressed enough. With other minerals and metals floating around in the coolant from tap water your SCAs won't function properly and may potentially not bond to walls and you'll be no better off than before. Finally fill your cooling system with a 50/50 mix of water and antifreeze and add two bottles of SCAs. Two bottles is what it requires to reach the amount of concentration to be effective in preventing damage from cavitation. You will need to get test strips to check your concentration of SCAs from time to time, these are purchased at a Cummins dealer or Fleetguard dealer. Cummins owns Fleetguard. Another factor that can't be overlooked is a cooling system that can hold the correct amount of pressure. Ford's IDI engines need to hold 13 PSI of pressure in the cooling system. If this isn't so, the cavitation will have a slightly greater effect. The pressure in the system keep the vapor pressure point of the coolant high so fewer vacuum bubbles will be able to form and then implode against the cylinder wall. One more factor is Engine temperature. If you drive your engine short distances and let it cool off cavitation will have a greater effect. With no heat in the cooling system it won't build up the 13 PSI of pressure it needs..
Great info Thanks. My belief I'm getting from this is degraded antifreeze and system pressure problems. Since it has not been a widespred problem I don't think it is going to be hard to avoid. In my part of the country we do need the cooling systems to be at their best. We do have summer weather with triple digits the norm in conjunction with heavy traffic so we are good about servicing them, testing caps etc. We also have in my particular area one of the purest water systems in the country. Industrial battery makers actually allow our water to be put straight into batteries. Water in this area is routinely used in cooling systems with no problems. I have also had many clients over the years who use their cars as daily drivers. In fact that 130,000 mile 308 I spoke of is his commuter and he commutes about 3 miles one way so I just do not see that as a problem for us. I can see bad water, cheap coolant, old coolant and bad pressure caps as a problem to be avoided.
So based on what we know so far, 1. I am the first to publish this problem ona 550 but may not be the last. Replacing the liners is very expensive and very time consuming, it requires engine out, complete strip down and special tools. Prevention is definitely better than cure. 2. Cavitation is the origin of the problem not corrosion. Once the protective surface is pitted by cavitation jets then there is a buildup of surface deposits. 3. Cavitation can be reduced by right additives in the coolant so choose your antifreeze for its ability to reduce cavitation and replace annually. 4. Cavitation is more likely if you do short trips and have poor coolant pressure (week pressure cap on expansion tank) 5. Cavitation is more likely to affect cylinders at the ends of the block 6. Symptoms are hidden until too late when a hole develops, your coolant flush may be clean, but who knows what lurks deep down in the block on the cylinder liner surface next to the coolant? 7. Drain both sides of the block and using a vacuum refill system (e.g. Uview Airlift) during coolant changes. And check those breather hoses for internal blockages. Just like RifleDriver said " I am thinking name brand coolant, good water, watter wetter, good pressure cap and annual changes should be a good recipe to avoid this". OK, now I will start rebuilding the engine, new liners should arrive soon. Regards, Ron
Extract from technical description on Water Wetter. Note they call it "cavitation erosion" not corrosion. Good explanation of cavitation, and they are honest enough to say a long term evaluation has not been conducted. The salt deposit we are seeing could be aluminum eroded from the surface pitting and then floating around looking for a good place to settle. Thanks to RifleDriver for the recommendation. Coincidentaly, I had just added Water Wetter to my car for the late summer 2 months before the liner blew, obviously too little too late. Regards, Ron http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/Diesel%20Water%20Wetter%20Tech%20Info.pdf CORROSION PROTECTION Red Line also provides excellent protection from cavitation erosion in the water pump and cylinder head when used with an adequately inhibited coolant. Localized boiling in the cylinder head forms vapor bubbles which collapse when they come in contact with cooler liquids. This collapse creates tremendous shock waves which removes the inhibitor film from the aluminum surface and can cause catastrophic erosion of the aluminum if the inhibitor does not reform the film quickly. Another problem created by cavitation erosion is the deposition of the removed aluminum as a salt with poor heat transfer properties in the lower temperature radiator tubes. Red Line prevents this corrosion through effective film formation and smaller vapor bubble formation, which has a less violent collapse. Foam control is equally important since entrained air will cause cavitation erosion due to the collapse of foam bubbles. Red Line provides excellent control of foam with water alone and glycol solutions. Red Line Diesel WaterWetter® does not provide the general rust and corrosion protection available in a heavy-duty coolant. A minimum of 33% coolant is required for adequate protection of cast iron and copper alloys. WET CYLINDER LINER CAVITATION EROSION Although the reduction in surface tension created by the Red Line WaterWetter® should reduce the rate of cavitation erosion in wet liners, a long term evaluation of this potential has not been conducted, so continue to use the recommended supplemental corrosion inhibitor. Supplemental corrosion inhibitors are compatible with Red Line Diesel WaterWetter®.
So for me I guess I wonder what everyone's opinion is on the "best" way to access that bank 7-12 block drain? I can see it well but don't quite have a slimjim arm to get to it. Do you guys go as far as dropping the steering rack to get to it? Thanks, Pete
I'm surprised no one has asked whether distilled water was being used to mix the coolant versus tap water.
Pet, by any chance you could post a photo of the angle took the picture of block drain, I looked and could not find. Talking to ferrari mechanics years back regarding removal, they don't. Thanks, Sark
Tim1137, Which do you think would be better distilled water or tap water (which varies depending on your region) or purified water ? Do you have access to any long term studies ? Opinions vary on this. Thanks for your interest, Ron
