The Cheeta LIVES!!

So says Joe...funny thing is...the CBS crew and multilple people yesterday asked the builder and the one who should know...if he was ever contacted by Joe or anyone else in regards to verificcation of this vehicle..his answer a flat NO. I do not think orginal contracts, communications, pictures, drawings etc etc and tons of it...all period correct and orginal have been "made up" by the orginal builder....

But I can not chnage minds till all is presented for all to review...and such it is..I guess, for Peter and maybe otherts..just cause Joe said so..it is stronger then documentation...your welcome to your "cavit emporer" thoughts.

and just so it is here and I say it...the Geneva vehicle WAS not destroyed in the desert as all think..it left Italy and returned to the USA...to San Jose..and from there we go on..

 

Todd you are correct, the 1981 LM001 prototype had a 180 hp 5.9L (360 ci) AMC-built V8, a 5896 cc engine, as presented in the vehicle at the 1981 Geneva Auto Show (alongside the new Jalpa).

This is stated by 2 noted Lamborghini Historians close to the factory at the period, Rob De La Rive Box, and factory associate/official works biographer Dr Stefano Pasini. The engine's specification is published in full Stefano Pasini's acclaimed book on the history of the firm, Automobili Lamborghini 1963 - 1998, and many other places besides.

Additionally, I have corroborating information that explains that the reason an AMC engine was used was because of the French family Mimran's connections with controlling shareholder at the time, Renault.

In case anyone is not sure who Stefano Pasini is, here is a link:
I libri che ho scritto

The factory have hired him more than once to write their own history.

The published specifications of the engine used in the LM001 are as follows:

Type-AMC V8
Capacity-5900cc
Compression-8.4:1

 

The answer is no, and Raymond's assertions have to do with how the company's history was affected, as recounted by Dr Stefano Pasini in his book (below). In the end, there are others that claim that Lamborghini at least stole the 'idea' from the hapless project, if nothing else. Lets just say it wasn't a shining moment in the history of the fabled sports car manufacturer from Sant Agata.
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Since you mention my name: Bear this in mind - sometimes in business, it is wise to nominate an unidentifiable third-party to carry out contacts &/or inquiries on your behalf. I find you tend to receive a more objective & unbiased response when the source of the inquiry remains a neutral party or one whose name is not known to you.

If by "builder" you are referring to Rodney Pharis, he has been contacted by many people in the past year in regards to verification of this vehicle, more than one of them on my behalf.

Furthermore, the real issue some are having is not so much the authenticity of the material he has (that is easy to ascertain), its is whether this vehicle is the same vehicle as that which was shown at Geneva. The physical burden of proof is, and always will be, on those that make that claim.

The truth is, if you read this thread from start to finish, it is littered with contradictions, errors, and... well, for example: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/141158716-post63.html

Clearly you state these are "teaser update pics as we move along with this project..". Turns out, they are pics from the period, and there is no way you did not know that, or, at the very least should have known that. That is not even the wheel that is available. How do you explain that? You have been asked, but have still not answered.

 

Peter,

Thank you for reminding us why I obviously have any interest in this vehicle.

Please allow me to tell the story in my own words:

In November 2011, one sunny Southern California day, I was outside in the garden pruning my wife's roses, when I was interrupted by a phone call. I noticed that it was a Michigan phone number. The gentleman who introduced himself as Carl Van R----- was not known to me, so as I always do when I receive a phone call from someone I don't know, I sat down & took notes so I could do some research later. The caller introduced himself as a person in partnership with someone in possession of the 1977 Cheetah. He stated that his purpose of calling me was the fact that he had been on the internet, and he had concluded that I was the party that could help him & his partner sell the aforementioned Cheetah and realize its true potential. Fair enough, I thought. I asked the gentleman to send me some pictures of the alleged Cheetah, any historical documents, records & receipts, and of course, the car's Title and/or ownership documentation. This is my standard request for any car, by the way. Before I hung up, I specifically recalled emphasizing to the caller to ensure that the pictures included any & all identifying markings, stampings, numbers & ID plates. I made it clear that our conversation was pointless without unimpeachable documented corroboration, and I made him understand that this was even more true of a historical vehicle of considerable renown, such as he was suggesting he wished to market.

A week went by. Nothing. I decided it wasn't a complete hoax, so I decided to follow up and call. Yes, he was working on the pictures. I repeated what I would need to see in the pictures, plus, all the other forms of corroboration I'd need to see as mentioned above.

Another week went by. Nothing. Then suddenly one day, I notice an e-mail with half-a-dozen pictures as shown below. Here is the e-mail:
On Nov 14, 2011, at 12:43 PM, Carl Van R----- wrote:
Joe,
Here are a few photos of the finished Lamborghini Cheetah prototype. Feel free to share them with whom you wish.
The Cheetah will be for sale. Please let me know how you would proceed and at what value.
Keep in mind that this vehicle does not exist according to all internet information.
I have verified this is the only one in existance according to the the designer who I have had many conversations with. His name is Rodney Pharis and he was president of MTI when they partnered with Lamborghini on this project.
Please note that some information found about the Cheetah is noy true. One being it was made of fiberglass. It is steel and aluminium.
The Cheetah runs great and has 1320 miles on its original Chrysler 360.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Carl
616-836-xxxx

These are the same pics that are now on Lambocars (Mark Smeyers & I have confirmed we got them from the same source, you can see his watermark on them), and have been supplied to at least half-a-dozen other people known to me. Pics of a brown truck, that did not look exactly like the Cheetah to me. Close, but, the wheel design was different, the rear overhang different, wheels not centered in he rear wheel well, rear track width significantly wider than original, and these were observations I made from a brief review of the images by comparing them to a significant library of the original thing which I possess. What to do?

So, I called up the Michgan gentleman again. I said to him that I never got any pics of identifying markings, stampings, numbers & ID plates, and I never got any Title and/or ownership documentation, historical documents or records. How come? The gentleman assured me that he was working diligently on the aforementioned items.

I thought that it was weird, that someone should seek me out & call me up, ask me to help them market something significant, and upon requesting specific items which he agreed were essential, he then fails to address any of them. Strange. I remember thinking: "Something stinks in Denmark, and its not the Cheese". Maybe my requirements were too much? Oh well, I thought, this is no different from the guy who keeps writing me telling me he has Countach number one, but pics show it to be some kind of LP400S of little significance, and whenever I ask for corroboration there is precious little in response. I get this type of stuff fairly often, and I have to remember I have some extremely wealthy clients who pay me a lot of money to be super-skeptical. I mention this so there is some understanding that without the basic requirements of due diligence, my acceptance of this vehicle was a non-starter for me or any of my clients, even though I had one party in mind that I thought it would be a good fit for if I could verify its identity.

A few more weeks go by. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Then, just as I had forgotten about all this, less than 2 months later, this thread was started by the OP, and suddenly all the questions are answered and will be revealed later.

Given this background, I think its clear why I should have any interest in this vehicle, whatever its identity. Now you all know the full story of my involvement, the best I can tell it.

Ladies & Gentlemen, please carry on with the Cheetah Show.
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100% correct...however it should be made clear it did not start with the AMC motor as it went through its countless modifications prior to landing at Geneva in its form as presented.

 

Maybe you should have dug deeper...and yes my speeling is not correct....always has been and always will be..."teaser update pics"....yes just as stated..teaser pics..not stated current pics..so dont read into what you want to hear and read...anyone with a computer could see they were period correct pictures..maybe a lesson in grammer comprehension is needed..

 

again 100% all correct as stated here...guess Joe just didnt see it all the way through...a little further digging...and as I was told a more pleasent person, in me, then the "Rose cutter" to deal with may have made the decision in the route the previous owner took...

 

I think you have mixed up your vehicles!

I think you are speaking of the Cheetah. The LM001 is not the Cheetah. Are you aware what the LM001 is?

It was built by Lamborghini at Sant Agata under Mimran in 1981 and is a genuine Lamborghini.

 

L@@K GI Joe fans cobra had it for many years, sat in Pops garage with the Mach 5, found by Alfred who needed parts for the bat cave car,, really its stuff of pure FUN and Yes Its LAMBORGHINI they paid for it or the courts have yet to decide that I guess. The matter of fact is there is a Cheetah Loose its now on my bucket list to get a ride in. Oh and I have ridden in the original Batmobile that just sold so there...

ROCK on peeps this is good reading for sure.. Cant wait to see it and really ROY I WANT A RIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will even pay the gas how is that for you.

 

Thank you for approving my story.

Best,

 

Strange..HOW can it be a REAL Lamborghini if it has an AMC motor..just cause they put together parts of multiple USA companies into a truck as the raced to re-create their first experiance with the Cheetah??

What about the LM trucks assembled in Spain..are they not Lamborghinis...how about the Gallardos in 2004 first assembled in Polland...and till today most assembled in Germany..are they not Lamborghini's?

 

Very simple: because it was conceived, designed, and built by Lamborghini under the roof of its own factory at Sant Agata. We are not talking about outsourced later production.

 

The universally-accepted expectation of the expression "teaser update pics" would be current progress shots. Not reproduced pics from the original period. The latter would be blatantly misleading when combined with the words "teaser update pics".

 

why not, its true..just just did not see it finished..and got the WHOLE story...heck I have to admit I was missing a few pieces till our day long investigation with the true owers of this vehicle when it was built...so many great things came to our attention..which has been documented and is iron clad..

as for instance the story of its "Escape" from the Factory in Italy after the Geneva show and who and how it was driven to Frankfurt to be on a plane to the USA back to San Jose due to non-payment by Lamborghini for the final phase....yea thats a shocker...Lambo didnt pay their bills back then LOL

The pictures and witness statements of how Lamborghini had fully taken it apart in the back of the factory and was reverse engineering it..of wow another shocker..a big company wanting to steal a smaller persons idea??

but, all this aside...this is where I see the issues..

1) Is it a true part of Lamborghini...IMO, it is, they paid for it, they contracted to have it built, they lured away employees from FMC to form their own company and built it for Lamborghini under MTI..they paid every penny of it (well not the last imstallment)..they paid for build, shipping, advertising, had 500 US and 500 Arabic brochures made, they marketed it, they put their name and thier badge on it.

2) was this Geneva vehicle in fact returned to the USA and to San Jose and MTI...yes, no question there..tons of evididence for that, back then and now

3) was it then sold to Teledyne and Pioneer...yes 100% correct..and off to Michigan it went..

4) where their other units similar to this re-engineered into other types of vehicles for miltary testing, ie, the rocket launcher, tropp carrier, ambulance etc etc..approx 3-5 units depnding on what evidence you believe...yes

5) was the real Cheetah still saved..yes..was it modified and military items added,, yes, such as differnt black out lights, differnt roll bar structures, differnt doors, top coverings..etc etc..but still the main unit estimated at over 85% remained.

6) was it sold at the end of Teledyn going out of business at an employee only auction
along with other items belonging to the company..yes

7) have I, to my satisfaction confirmed this is the orginal Cheetah that was on the Geneva stand, with its cosmetic modifications, color changes, in-correct wheels...yes

8) am I bringing it back to its orginial cosmetic state as close as possible with the aid
of the orginal builders and many period correct left over items from their stock yes

9) will it be 100% nut and bolt as it was on the Geneva stand..NOPE...but then again what restoratin is...??

10) Am I here to convince the F-chat members to accept this vehicle...maybe at first yes..buy now..nope...it is what it is..and it makes me happy and I for one consider part of Lamborghini History...and since I own it..thats all that really matters after all...is it not?

 

Such is your interpetation...

and by this theory I assume you mean all newer production vehicles from say 2001 and on are not Lamborghini worhty...nor is the LM 002 as it was built in Spain??

But for the sake of your theory...do you know the pct of parts for the Miura, Countach, the LM001 etc etc that were never "concieved", produced or built in the factory...let alone in Italy......

 

You mean the "Joe-has no needs 1986 Countach DD" book of meanings??

I look forward to your nest book...

"The REAL JOE meaing of words and phrases"

 

Lets stay on topic. No need to get personal. Many people have questioned post 63 http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/141158716-post63.html as being intentionally misleading. Lets give you the benefit of the doubt as you say it was not. If anyone else reading this thinks "teaser update pics" can mean period pics from 30 plus years ago, please say so, and then we'll be learning something new. I hope you can at least see how many are concerned...

As for books, as you can see in the Ferrari Supercar section, my new book on the 288 GTO just went to the publisher this past Friday. 5 years of work. Man, what a relief!
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Again, we are getting off-topic. The LM001 compared to the Cheetah does not have its identity questioned by anyone, its heritage is all Lamborghini, that's all I'm saying. You didn't realize I was talking about the LM001 and you responded "100% correct" so, are you saying the Cheetah had an AMC engine at Geneva? Just curious.

 

Can you share images that show any & all identifying markings, stampings, numbers & ID plates that show this is the Geneva vehicle?

Can you share any & all historical documents, records & receipts that show same?

Can you show the video too?

People would be very interested & appreciative. Lots of assertions & claims, very little to actually back anything up, I hope you understand this.

 

So far, all visible parts shown on this vehicle do not match with the Geneva vehicle. So the only parts that could still be possibly connected to the Geneva vehicle is the frame (not including the roll cage) and engine. I will not include the suspension because of the much wider track. I do not see that as 85% of the total vehicle but maybe there is more under there than we know. But there is just no way that you can state that any of the body pieces, roll cage, front and rear bumpers, gas can mounts, wheels, suspension or pedals are from the Geneva vehicle. The only external pieces I see that match the original is the tail lights and light grills (chromed from black).

 

+1

 

The pictures are obvious from the time period as well as easily identifiable with the background old date vehicles, photo quality etc etc..they were meant as being released as never seen before or released pics we acquired in our investigation as was the video commercial I released, also have never been seen in the public prior..pretty obvious what it is...sorry there are those that can't see the obvious in the photograph documentation...maybe should have a disclaimer about the video as well...but again it is as are these IMO "teaser pics/video" as I was and am moving along with the project.

 

No, read post #281 again..I said you are 100% correct as to with you have written, with the exception of what I added..pretty clear what I said.

 

As stated multiple times, all your questions will be answered when the vehicle is presented in August...with all its supporting documentation...

You will be more then welcome to climb all over it, under it, on it...do what ever makes you happy to review it at that time.