I get what your saying. Here is the thing though. We could go out and buy a stand alone programable ECU. But then you have to spend the coin to make a complete wiring harness, or bastardized the existing harness. Then after you've done that you are still gonna have to spend the cash to get it tuned, and if you are starting from scratch that is gonna be a WHOLE HECK of a lot of tuning, mapping, and dyno time. Or Just spend the money to get the current ecu tuned for what's necessary for the WOT mapping. All the part throttle stuff won't have to be fooled with, because the factory already took care of it. All the emission and fuel economy maps stay in tact, and the only thing that gets adjusted is the pedal to the metal stuff. This is the way I'm gonna go after I've finish fooling with all the "bolt on" mods. Still not cheap, but "easier" for this go around. What ever the case, those of us doing mods are having fun hotrodding our 348s, and hopefully inspire others to do the same.
Yep, time to start goofing with these things. I like the idea of messing with the Challenge car cuz of the Motec, but really, this car is so far beyond our 348's I'm not sure what we learn is gonna transfer. Still, its a good start. Here's an idea: Dyno the race car at Church's with their guy on the laptop to make sure they are happy with the state of tune. Remember that engine can go beyond 8000 rpm, so we have to keep it down in our lowly 348 range to transfer the mods. Got to recalculate the gear ratios in that thing. That drop gear is major aggressive. Hmm, can they handle a 5.16 final drive ratio? Next, we swap in the 355 tbs. Hmm, got to handle the throttle position sensor and the MAF vrs. MAP sensor. The race car uses the 348 air box to locate the MAP, no MAFs. Add the 355 air boxes - could we tap in a hole for the MAP like on the 348 version and not screw it up? Swap in the race car's injectors - no they are no where near stock. Dyno again. See what shakes. That way we can see just what the swapping in of a wide open intake gets the engine. Bruce whatdoyathink? Okay, remember the initial track on this whole campaign - keep the car stock as possible, smog legal and see what we can do to make more power. That's why some of what we do seems less simplistic. Heck if we wanted to turn our cars into street illegal beasts, there's alot we could do that we'd have to undo every 2 years in CA. I don't want to hassle that. I don't mind making some small change every 2 years, like swapping out chips of something, but I'm not going to disassemble the top end of the engine to make the state happy every other year. I'd have to move to AZ if that was the option - I'm thinking of it in the back of my mind.
Whne I was screwing around with F355 airflow in CFD, I found I could get a clean 20HP by placing the velocity stack inside what looks a lot like a quart jar and placing this inside the F355 airbox. That quart jar is a helmholtz resonator for the one cyclinder, the air box is a second stage helmohltz resonator for all 4 cyclinders on that side. Tuning 2 resonators, one tuned for 1 cycloinder, the other tuned for all 4 cylinders, was a lot more challenging than just tuning one or the other.
You do realize that your goth airbox mods, goth exhaust, ernie headers, etc are already illegal and would not pass visual if the smog tech had any clue. You don't mean smog legal you mean something like 80th percentile will pass emmisions and fool smog guy.
Psssssssttt. Lemme clue you in on something since you haven't figured it out. (shifting eyes, looking all around, in a whispering voice) We don't give a rats ass.
And where are the dyno sheets? In other words, build it and test it already. Enough crunching numbers. Drop the cash and make it.
Does passing the smog test, on a dyno, with the sniffer in the tail pipe count? The cars still blow clean as a whistle when tested for emissions, AND we are making more power. Will that make you happy? Or wait lemme guess, they have to pass "scrutineering". If that's the case, you better hope they don't find the resonator delete pipes on your 550.
Still not oem, still not the factory exhaust, still not CARB approved, still a modification of the exhaust system, and still WON'T pass a CARB inspection. Has it passed the Cali db noise level test at a BAR referee? Um no. So quit going around pissing on people's camp fires, when you're no more compliant with "smog legality" than the rest of us.
California Vehical Code. 27150.**(a) Every motor vehicle subject to registration shall at all times be equipped with an adequate muffler in constant operation and properly maintained to prevent any excessive or unusual noise, and no muffler or exhaust system shall be equipped with a cutout, bypass, or similar device. 27151.**(a) No person shall modify the exhaust system of a motor vehicle in a manner which will amplify or increase the noise emitted by the motor of the vehicle so that the vehicle is not in compliance with the provisions of Section 27150 or exceeds the noise limits established for the type of vehicle in Article 2.5 (commencing with Section 27200). No person shall operate a motor vehicle with an exhaust system so modified. http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc27150.htm http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc27151.htm
I'm not trying to piss on your parade. I don't have an agenda or dog in this fight. If you don't take it from me take it from a pro who has already gently gave his opinion. As I said before development has to be a system. You can't have the best safety belts in your car and not anchor them to anything or they don't work. Piecemeal development costs you more money in the long run. Others reading this thread might think you are building a smog legal system and spend $$ in duplication only to be slapped down by their smog guy. I'll include this in my final post on this subject. There is a really easy way to get 75 more horsepower. Its called a 355.
Well it sure does feel like you are. As for buying a faster car here is what you also aren't getting. We don't want a faster 355, we don't want a faster 430, we don't want a faster 458. What we want is OUR 348's to be faster. I want my 348, and I want my 348 to be faster. I don't want a 355, I don't want a 360, I want MY 348, and I want it to be faster. Look fatboy, I don't wanna argue with you, I think your cool people. Just be a little more supportive would you? Now can we get back to being Stooge buddies?
Put a 355 engine in it then, the engineering is already done for the extra power. If you want real power, you need to start with the bottom end (more rpms) and heads (more air to feed the rpms), then match everything to that. You're starting at the wrong end, especially if you want to keep it somewhat stock looking.
Oh trust my, I have been making plans for that faze of the operation. But that won't be until some time in the very distant future. That is when the BIG money will have to be spent. Block, crank, pistons, rods, rings, head, valves, cams, injectors, stand alone ecu, gearbox, suspension, brakes, etcetera. Trust me, I already have my "if I win the lottery" list of things to be done.
My car is completely legal with everything we have done to it. And that's how I would like to keep it. I would like to be able to find more power without going to illegal means, but I am almost there. Ernie's headers are debatable - since there is nothing on the stock header that involves emissions, I'd be hard pressed to see how replacing them with a better design is going to run afoul of the CA BAR, especially since the engine management system and smog controls remain in tact and the car meets emissions testing. We really do not want to go into the ending to make more power. You are so correct - doing that runs into costs that do not offset just getting a 355. Again, we are just trying to see how much more power we can make with the stock engine by better air flow and engine efficiency. It's no different than the Corvette guys playing with intake and headers to get the most out of their engines. Smaller engines means smaller gains so my expectations are not huge, but if there are more ponies to be had with a decently modest investment (by Ernie ) then I will do it. No juicing, no 355, no smog failures. For now. [man i do want to turbo that engine tho]
I wonder if you will be able to get much more out of it. I talked to my friend and my mechanic the other day about it and he said that you will have to remap the ecus and it aint easy to get the power where you want it. He told me that these engines only suck air mechanically untill the car hits 80kmh at which time the air flow around the car starts to come back toward the air intakes and push into the air boxes. After 120 you start getting some good air flow pressure into the boxes. I dont think that you can simlulate this on a dyno.
Yes, that's a problem with the dyno - we can never replicate the force of speed induction. I'd settle for just getting the top part of the engine to breathe better, then work the ecus and count on Helmhotlz resonance and ram air induction as gravy. We don't have a real target, just better than stock, legal and easily replicated for the Brotherhood. Well, some us may want to embarass the 355 crowd, but that's not me.
Update on the measurements. I asked DeeGee to measured the intake ports on the LM head. They came in at right around 3 3/4", from the valve seat to the opening of the intake port. Adding that to the runner length of 7 5/16" = a total intake runner length of 11 1/16". Meaning, the runners will still only be able to take advantage of the 4th harmonic. But what's bad is that the length is still wrong for what we need. It puts the harmonic peak in the 6500rpm range. For us to be able to get into the 3rd harmonic we'd have to be able to rev to 8800rpm, with the peak benefit coming it at around the 8500 mark, and to hit the 2nd harmonic 11,900 rpm. Can any one guess why the 355s are making more power????? Only thing in can gather why my car is making the power higher in the revs is, it has to be due to the porting I have done to the runners and tb's, and even the better breathing exhaust system. Oh, and the cam timing. There's power to be made in the intake boys. Let's find it.
Ooh ooh me me me! Uhh, 8 extra valves. 6 extra throttle bodies. Mmm, another 1000 rpm. Let's see......an extra .1L of displacement. Oh, and the engine was designed in the next decade. How'd I do? All fun aside though you're not going to get 75 (or even half of that) by snagging that 3rd wave of resonance. Probably not even the second. I am all for helping build a prototype for you guys once I knock out some of these other projects I'm working on. Rob
