David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

But as already said, 0858 became a 350 CanAm car. Nothing confusing about that at all.

No different to the Series 1 GTO's that became Series 2, or 0846 that became a P3/4 after starting life as a P3. Many racecars (not just Ferrari ones) evolve over time to suit differing series or to remain competitive. Continuous history is the key.

IMO the car now is a replica using components from an original Ferrari. In many ways no better than making a TR or GTO replica from a 250GT 2+2 (again IMO). Just like with the 250GT 2+2's this car has likely been modified because (IMO) it will make more profit ...
Pete

 

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We all have our opinions, and you are entitled to yours, however, the above comparison is absolutely absurd.

First of all the car isn't being turned into something it never was, it it's being restored to a earlier point in time. TOTALLY different than making it into something it never was. While you could relate this to returning the Breadvan to the SBW it was, (and I agree that would be a travesty), what is happening here isn't nearly the same as making some replica, and to say that is and call the car a "replica" is just silly.

The chassis mods to make the car the CanAm were primarily cutting off the aft chassis parts that were there to support the rear bodywork and spare tire, and replacing them with lighter pieces, and cutting off the roll hoop and replacing that with a hoop appropriate for the roadster version. This has to be "undone", but it's not really much in the grand scheme of things. The biggest part of the job as far as the restoration is concerned is replacing the mid section aluminum bodywork and putting the roof on the car. Since Jim did this on 0856 recently you can go to that thread and see what exactly is required. Compared to many period restorations this is not a major deal. Ninety percent of the chassis will be the same as it was when it left the factory, and what has been replaced aft of the transmission bulkhead is stuff that would be easily damaged in a shunt. Would you be describing repair of a rear end shunt as "chassis modifications". I don't think so.

The rest of the bodywork bolts on, is removable and replaceable and indeed was often swapped around by the factory between cars when they were being raced. The original bodywork for 0846 was long lost, and I don't see people complaining that it's not the bodywork that ran at Daytona, it is what it is. Indeed, I don't see folks complaining that 0854's roof wasn't made in Italy by the original panel beaters either. People here seem to just accept it, and I accept that the bodywork on this car is a reproduction. I don't think there are any "original" P4 body parts that haven't been hit or seen racing damage, so nothing is really original on these cars.

The owners are restoring the car to a point in time that reflects what they want it to be, and it's pretty close to what it was at the time, and since they own it that's there prerogative.

We all have our opinions on this subject.. JMHO

 

+1

 

Okay I retract my last post. I forgot about the "previous configuration concept".

Pete

 

You're quite wrong. There are original P body parts existing today. Everything on 0854 except it's roof panel is totally original. The parts that Piper damaged were replica fiberglass panels not the original's which survived and were refitted at a later time. Nose earlier, tail by me. The spyder tail on 0846 original as well.

When I bought 0854 it had one original roof panel missing . It had it's original nose and 0858's original spyder tail. It had it's original rear bulkhead and coupe window. As I had it's original coupe tail restoring it to as it last raced wasn't an issue. 0854 as it is today is very original chassis/engine/gearbox/ coupe body/doors (new roof).

You're confusing 0856 with 0854. 0856 is also very original as last raced with original panels.

0846 was what it was and is what it is. It's also totally disclosed. Today it is fitted with 0858's original spyder tail.

0858 was a totally original 350 Can Am. It was the last totally original 350 Can Am in existence. It no longer is. Original 350 Can Am's are now extinct. It is now a 350 Can Am fitted with a replica P4 body made on an English wheel not a replica P4 body made as they were in the day. 0858's roof panel and 0846's nose were made properly as they were in the day. 0846's nose in Italy and 0854's roof in the US.

 

Does Ferrari have a different code for the Can Am chassis vs. the P4 chassis? I'd expect they do. At the point 858's original P4 chassis was modified into something else, it should have received a new number. Never mind homologation-issues, the car was now a Can Am specification car and had to be homologated for that series anyway?

I realise that this is a rather academic discussion, as history can't be changed, I just like to establish that the chassis-number per se isn't the end all point here, as is the case with many Ferrari's.

P4 0858 seized to exist when Ferrari dismantled it and used some if its' parts to build 350 Can Am 0858. Bringing P4 0858 back to life would require far more than replacing some chassis-sections and the body.

That said, what is being done is documented, and a buyer would have access to plenty information pertaining to what he is buying. The sum changing hands will validate the road chosen from a financial point, but history is destroyed forever. IMO a wrong decision.

Best,

Jack.

 

This butchering is a total shame. In persuit of the £££, a piece of history is bastardised, it can now only be considered a mongrel. Such a shame, I'm sure the Can-Am spec would have gained the recognition as totally unique, and been a shrewd long term investment for someone, after all, how many true 'one of one' Ferraris remain today.

This thread belongs in the "Recreations and non-period rebodies" section.

Such a shame.


Regards
Mike James

 

Agreed and accordingly I cannot understand why putting a replica body on will enhance the value if this is the generally perceived motivation.

Interestingly the work is not being done through Classische and there may be a good reason for this. Classische would not sanction 4765GT being returned to the more popular series one as the period alteration was a fundamental part of the history. 0858 is no different.

Kim

 

When you say Classiche would not sanction 4675GT (not 4765GT) being returned to Series One do you mean they refused to carry out this conversion or that they would not give Classiche Red Book Certification if reverted to 250 GTO Series One configuration?

 

One and the same. The Factory organised the restoration and certification following a discussion with the owner about replacing the series 2 body with a new series 1. The key deciding factor was that the original work was done in period and by the factory.

 

Sorry, I can't have made myself clear but they are not "one and the same" thing. So did the Factory agree to carry out the conversion from 250 GTO S2 to S1 but would not then give the Classiche Red Book Certification but would certify it as a Ferrari of Historical Importance as Ferrari told Jim Glickenhaus they would certify 0858 if the Factory carried out the reversion to P4 configuration?

 

I think 0858 was becoming an issue for the Factory as RM was calling it a P4. This is what they came up with around the time of the auction.

 

The car was specifically sent to the factory for a red book certificate and this would not be given if the body was replaced. No idea about the Historical Importance point

 

So the Factory did sanction their carrying out the conversion but not its Classiche Red Book Certification had they carried out the said conversion.

 

Walter Medlin's cars - I think so. One and the same.

 

This is getting very repetitive. Read my last post

 

I did but your wording is confusing and previous posts, particularly post 209, more than imply, in fact mean, that the Factory would not carry out the conversion when in reality they will but wouldn't award it a Classiche Red Book Certificate as that's not how it last left the Factory, consistent with their policy. Your answers have not been clear.

 

330 Can Am 0844 before being fitted with a Replica Piper 412P body.
350 Can Am 0858 before being fitted with a Replica Piper P4 body.

 

Sorry if you are confused, and I am not or have not implied any disagreement with the factory.

I will expand and put it as simply as I can. The car needed work to correct mistakes from earlier restorations. The owner had the choice of where the work was done and decided to give the car to Classiche to get the all important certificate. Classiche issues the certificates and Classiche determine what work is required to do so. As part of the restoration process, the owner discussed replacing the body but was advised to repair the existing. The owner agreed with the advise and the work was "sanctioned" by Classiche and a certificate was duly issued.

 

Can I ask the circumstances of Ferrari very clearly stating the above during your very specific conversation? Surely they wouldn't just come out with this? Could I pose the question and ask if it was in response to your asking Ferrari along the lines of if they would award Classiche Red Book Certification to 0858 if they carried out the reversion to P4 configuration. Why also would you ask the question if you have no interest in such a reversion?

 

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition !!!!!!!!

Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise

 

RM started by offering the car as a P4. At the time of the auction Ferrari and I discussed a lot of things about 0858 including it's real history. I showed them original Le Mans scrutinising documents and told them about the accident damage clearly visible on 0858's spyder tail that was now on 0846. They still maintained that their new history of 0858 was correct. I said that I could see Ferrari swapping chassis plates but my documents showed engine numbers that matched chassis plates and asked if they also swapped engines or re-stamped them. They stood by their new history. As there have been cases of Ferrari re-stamping engines it's possible. I bid accordingly and verbally at the auction RM referred to the car as a 350 Can Am. My bid was not accepted. If it had been I would have restored 0858 as she was and driven, demonstrated, and shown her as I do with all of my cars.

I agree that if Ferrari had been willing to Red Book Classiche 0858 as a P4 it would be worth more in the marketplace (not to me) but after Piper's cutting and fitting of a Replica body I don't feel it is.

 

This is news to me.

 

Not true.

When 0844 was transformed into the 330 Can Am, a new fiberglass body was NOT built (i.e. unlike the case with 0858).

Instead, the existing P3/4 aluminum coachwork was heavily modified (i.e. the 330 Can Am body was all aluminum).

When 0844's coachwork was returned to P3/4 Berlinetta configuration in the late-1990s, the work was performed by Lennart Gustafsson in So. California.

In doing so, Lennart was able to retain a good amount of the existing aluminum (i.e. due to the fact the existing 330 Can Am bodywork wasn't created anew in-period, but was instead the result of modifying the original P3/4 body). Piper did provide molds to Lennart so that the resultant end product would have the correct shape, etc.

Through divine intervention, an original P3/4 green-painted roof (i.e. ostensibly from 0854), was also located.