THE F70 (LaFerrari) Thread

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SomersF1: 2014's Power Units - 1.6 V6 Turbo's with ERS (KERS & TERS)

 

Same as on my Nissan 370Z!

 

Did I read that right? The FIA raised the center of gravity on the F1 cars on purpose? As well as their minimum weight?

Why?

 

These things have been happening for years now. Actually the V10s were lighter than the V8s by regulation!!!

As for the new rules, I assume they are on cost grounds. Since the new power units are by definition heavier and bulkier than the V8s, the FIA set a higher minimum standard so as not to initiate a costly design war between the manufacturers.

PS: This was a sad read. A 12k RPM V6 muffled by a turbocharger is hardly as exciting as what we have today sound-wise. Enjoy this F1 year gentlemen. It's the last hurrah of the N/A engines, at least for the foreseeable future...

 

Yeah I think I read something somewhere that the Enzo's cost to Ferrari was about $175,000 per car. Is that anywhere near being accurate or am I just forgetting exactly what the article said?

 

I hate to get away from the F70...... but it's main competition is dead ugly.....


I'm joking here but the Interior looks way too much like the 12C. No wonder they were hiding it for so long. There's very little inspiration here.


NOW! Back to the F70.

 

Yeah they really started restricting the engine design towards the end of the V10 era and much more so once the V8s came along. They fixed a minimum weight and center of gravity which I feel is stupid. The whole engine freeze thing I feel is a crock of ****. These days with the engines being so overbuilt and limited in revs that they have become too reliable I feel. With the top cars almost never going out of the races there is little chance for the midfield and even a backmarker to be able to move up the leader board and score some points or even a lucky podium.

Hopefully the new V6s will have a large reliability concern and take a while for the teams to figure out exactly how to get them working at their best and not blowing up.

 

It depends on how to you measure "profit".

Let's say they make 375K P1's and by some miracle, they make 100% on each one. So, let's just round numbers to make it easy and say each sale brings in 500K USD (which I don't believe --- I think it's more like 30 points but I'll give them the benefit). I'm assuming they are cutting out the dealer's margins. If they aren't, then its worse.

Ok... 500K USD time 375 pieces: that's $187 Million. Seems like a lot, right?

Well, how much did Mac put into this project?

Well, there's years of R and D costs, tooling costs, marketing costs, testing, world wide certification etc. etc.

Then you have add future warranty costs to add in, along with training and spare parts.

When you're all done, you have less than half of that. 90 M may sound like a lot but for a car company, is that a lot? I don't think so. You've invested years of time and energy into this project and you will get back MAYBE 30M a year in "profit" for the next 3 years.

It's a pittance.

Just like Airbus needing to make 350 A380's before they can see one dime of "profit", McLaren will have the same problem. I bet their break even is at least 250 pieces. Any less than that and they lose money.

About 250 and they break even. Well, I can tell you break even is not good enough. You don't spend years of time and money just to end up where you were at the start.

I think 250 is highly optimistic that they can sell. And, having to compete at the same time as the F70 will make that even more difficult.

When you have a product that has a stated limited number, it's much more risky to make a lot of money from it. If it's wildly successful, you just can't keep making more or them or lose hurting your best customers. You have to plan to eek out a profit from maximizing every last one you plan to make.

That means, for Mac to meet it's goals on this project, it needs to sell every one of those 375 units. I think that's unrealistic.

 

You're neglecting to consider options and personalization costs over an above the base price of $1.15M.

The average $230k 12C was being fitted with $45k worth of options and accessories.

McLaren Special Operations was expecting to handle requests from approximately 10% of customers with requests outside the traditional list of options and were seeing more than double that. This car will be a profit center for McLaren - don't you worry Bob.

>8^)
ER

 

You also have to take into account that as a halo vehicle it will do much for the brands perceived image and prestige. That could end up driving up sales for their other street cars and also attract more sponsors for their F1 cars as demand for their advertising space becomes higher.

The initial and tangible monetary profit doesn't tell the whole story of how much money they will be making eventually.

 

Lol!! +1

 

Bob

Unlike you I've actually made cars.

I've been a major share holder in a major car manufacturer as well.

Your science is weak sauce.

We engineered everything on P 4/5 C except the block and the heads and own all tooling to make as many as we want to.

At a million per our margin would be 40%. We'd break even on development and tooling after 5 cars.

 

Good post. It has always been suspect how some manufacturers bloated their development costs as to "impress" or possibly discourage other manufacturers from attempting to enter similar market niches.

 

Modern Manufacturing is mathematics. Digital numbers, a block of alloy, a 5 axis CAD controlled machine and you have a totally unique corner. If we had to make 4X375 of these we could bring the cost WAY down.
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I do agree with that. And, that's the purpose of the F70 -- to promote the Ferrari brand.

But, for a company like McLaren that is already struggling with sales and resale value, they need to make money in addition to making a Halo car.

And, once again, the F70 thread has been dragged into discussing the P1 for the upteeth time. Can the P1 lovers just make a thread in the British section?

 

Profit? Yes... if they can sell at least 250 -- or 2.5 times MORE than the Mac F1 at the time when the F70 is also on the market.

If they stop at 100 cars, they will lose a ton. And, they know it.

 

Question: How difficult would it be to get a road legal version of the P 4/5 C?

(Since the frame is based on the F430 does that negate the need for new crash testing? I assume this would be the most onerous hurdle not to mention most costly, too)

 

Jim, you are accusing me of weak sauce? Do you really think it only cost McLaren 3 million dollars to develop, test, tool, do world wide certification and market this product (aka 4 or 5 cars at 40% margin at $1 Million each?)

I do more than that on developing a 20 dollar toy. Seriously... that's just my TV ad budget and it's just average. I'm in the wrong business if you believe that.

I'm not saying its not possible for them to make a profit when production is finished. But, go back and look at the Mac F1. If it was so profitable to McLaren, why didn't they just make another right after?

The reason.. it's didn't make them enough money.

I'm saying it took 90 Million to design, develop, tool, test, certify and market this product, as well as set aside a budget for spares, training, and warranty service/repair.

And you say?

 

Beautiful!

There was a nice video about the development of the new Pagani. They showed a really nice suspension part which was re-designed several times. Originally it was two parts but then with the new technology, as you discuss, they were able to make it in a single piece.

 

Awesome! Especially the top-down shot.
Horses for courses but I just don't get how anyone can consider this "ugly".
Futuristic yet evocative of of the Mc F1.
Even though gun-slit windows are the current stylistic rage I much prefer a nice big greenhouse for visibility.
The interior would benefit from some color to brighten it up. The red&black interior on the Enzo I sat in was much better than the all-black alternative.

 

I thought P 4/5 C IS road legal? Didn't he run it at the 'Ring with the license plate on?

 

The best example to look at IMO is Hennessy and his Venom. By using a Lotus as a base he is able to produce cars legally in low volume and sell them profitably. As an aside his car goes 0-300 KPH in about 13.63 seconds which is the World Record and handles very well on a race track.

Hennessey Venom GT officially sets 0-300 km/h world record [w/video]

A friend may produce a few sell copies of his New Stratos. (Contrary to reports that this won't happen) He figures he can sell them at about 600e and make a nice profit on a run of about 6 cars. Those would be F430 based.

 

Very interesting. I guess you're talking about P 4/5 C. If you are, are you taking into consideration the initial investment for P4/5?
Do you know how much did Pininfarina spend on research and tooling for P4/5 and Ferrari on the Enzo research, 430 S' chasis, and 430 GT2 engine that you use on P4/5C? If so, do you take those also into consideration or only your investment?

I ask this because I think research costs differ a lot from starting from scratch, to making something good, better.

If you sold new P4/5 C's with the chasis based on 430 S's and 430 GT2 engine, wouldn't that count as re-engineering Ferrari property?

 

I know Hennessey is making a hefty margin on the Venom. Lotus offers very interesting options for LV Manufacturers via their platform. Don't ask me how I know;-)

It's the future IMHO.

 

P 4/5 C has a 4.5 liter engine that we developed not a 430 GT2 engine. It is quite legal to re engineer/modify any thing you own/have bought.

The corner I showed and many, many parts we use we developed from scratch so I do have experience with the costs of developing things from scratch.

I do think your point is valid, especially regarding the cost of meeting regulatory requirements and I think that's why Hennessey and The New Stratos are using existing cars as their base in a commerical venture.

P 4/5 C and Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina aren't and never will be commericial ventures.

P1 and F70 will be VERY profitable for McLaren and Ferrari even taking into consideration the costs you referenced.