787 fire at Boston Logan

If the batteries are backup and not used in flight that is a little reassuring. Would hate to be out over the Pacific with a thermal runaway battery.

But one must question if Boeing made such amatuer mistakes with the Battery cell spacing, what else have they put in this plane that is not well understood.

We know that the MBA driven design and production methodology of having subs do most things did not work out as planned for manufacturing efficiency, I wonder if the same is true for design flaws.

 

The batteries are likely being charged, or maintained, while in flight so you may not be as reassured as you would like to be.

 

You've got me fooled... ha

 

More than likely.
The only time the charge can be replenished is when the engines are spooled up, therefore the possibility of a malfunction (or over-charge) can still occur in flight whether the batteries are "in-use" or not.

Mr.Conner has been misinformed or does not understand the nature of the charge/discharge system.

 

I suspect that the batts can be charged while on a GPU buss. In fact, I'm guessing that batt buss voltage would be on the MEL for that plane, and if it's not at rated level a warning lamp will be present and the batt must be charged by either the engine or the GPU.

 

The mistake Boeing made was that they left the design up to the sub-contractor.

* Yes it is true for design flaws x 1000, in all aspects.
* This has been the major issue causing the production delays, over promising and under delivering by under-qualified contractors, going back three tiers in some cases.
* These aren't Toasters or Toyotas and to think you can use the same exact methodology in production is a mistake, a big one.

* Disclaimer: Opinions expressed above are solely my own and in no way reflect the official views of Boeing and it's affiliates.

 

Or thye are all BSing trying to get the plane back into the air or Boeing is gone.

 

The Engines or the APU, take your pick.

 

LOTS of B.S.ing going on. In this case, thank God for the FAA and NTSB

STILL NO WORD ON THE CAUSE of these malfunctions, only the symptoms.

 

Surely it can charge from the APU as it's embedded in the plane(somewhere). I just took issue with the statement that the batts can only charge with the engines spinning. I"m fairly sure they will charge on ground power using the GPU supplied. The 787 uses electric start, not air pressure, so getting the batts up and fresh is a priority(although batts are used to start the APU).

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Yes I understand about charging from ground power.

What I was alluding to was Conner's statement that they weren't used in flight (specifically) and therefore not a hazard. In that case, the engines or APU would be doing the charging.

I don't recall the article mentioning this but the fire in Boston would have occurred while the aircraft was on Ground Power.
Rolling up to the gate plus the time to unload passengers which would have given the ground crew plenty of time to hook up.

 

Lithium batteries can catch fire hours after they have been damaged. I don't know why this retardation happens, but this is known among the rc guys who use lithium batteries. Typically if they have been under mechanical or thermal stress. E.g. a lithium battery powered rc plane that crashes. Battery seems to be o.k. and is taken home. Laid down somewhere in the workshop at home and is forgotten. Workshop on fire. Happens from time to time.

 

Not sure if the problems are the same but F1 teams spent huge resources on cooling the battery's for their KERS systems,and Boeing did not not spent enough or know enough to cool these battery's ??
the Williams F1 team had a KERS related battery fire after a race this year..where there is smoke there is fire..literally. I would have more faith in a system that formula one teams found a fix for than anyone else.
The Mclaren MP4-12C has a lithium battery, which is very small, but mounted in a case the size of the equivalent lead acid battery, as if to say "yes we want to save weight, but we know its going to fail, and you will want to replace it with a $100 battery instead of a $500 battery that is going to break again, so we will make the battery bracket big enough to fit the replacement"
Guess the Boeing subcontractors didn't bring that up....

I think we are still aways from this being "proven technology"

 

Prof at MIT weighs in on batt fiasco. Interesting that my ideas seem to be backed up by someone at MIT. I'm blushing, no really I am.

MIT Professor: Battery Fix Could Ground 787 Until 2014 - Forbes

 

You cannot just plug lead-acid batteries into a L-ion system. Different charging, etc. systems. Electrical system must be re-done.

 

+1 On mine, the instructions are very explicit;

- Use only the "correct" smart charger.
- Only charge in a "battery bunker" or ammo-can.
- Store inside said protection.

*Very* different requirements; F1 stuff is designed to be charged/discharged *hard* - Much heat produced and many "duty cycles" just in one race.

Here though I *suspect* they're basically on a "trickle" charge pretty much all the time and almost never see *hard* discharging or the need for fast, big charges.

Plus, if one does go tits up (and it seems the systems do break) the guy's a little (soon to be a lot!) down on power - No big deal. 4-5 hours out over water is a little different of course....

Cheers,
Ian

 

You need another software. That's all. Even my 10 year old charger can charge almost everything. NiCd, NiMH, lead-acid, LiCoO2, LiMn, etc. pp. From tiny AAA to 100 Ah lead-acid. Of course if it is used in an airplane things have to be certified, but if in this case McLaren wanted to offer an exchangeable battery solution they could do this without hardware changes. I don't know if they designed their system this way, but in principle no problem there.

 

PUBLIC DOMAIN SOURCE

THE SENTENCE IN THE LAST PARAGRAPH PRETTY MUCH SAYS IT ALL.

NTSB report on 787 coming Thursday | Business & Technology | The Seattle Times

The NTSB will issue an interim report Thursday on the lithium ion battery fire in January aboard a parked Boeing 787 Dreamliner

By Dominic Gates

Seattle Times aerospace reporter


The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) will issue an interim report Thursday on the lithium ion battery fire in January aboard a parked Boeing 787 Dreamliner at Logan Airport in Boston.

A month ago, in its last briefing, the NTSB said investigators had determined that the fire on the Japan Airlines jet started with a short circuit inside a single cell of the eight-cell battery, located in an electronics bay just behind the wing.

The NTSB has been trying to establish what caused the short circuit, but experts have expressed doubt whether that will ever be known for sure, given the level of damage to the battery.

There’s no indication that the interim report will provide an answer, though it may make clearer whether or not a definitive cause is likely to be identified later.

The report is “factual in nature and does not provide any analysis,” the NTSB said in a statement Wednesday.

Boeing’s 787s have been grounded since Jan. 16, when a second battery overheated and smoldered during an All Nippon Airways flight in Japan a week after the incident at Logan.

Boeing has proposed a fix for the battery problem — which, in the absence of a known root cause, attempts to address all possible battery system malfunctions. The company is awaiting approval from the Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) to implement that fix.

The FAA is expected to give its initial response late this week or early next.

 

On the Mclaren you just program the Battery control module with what type of battery is installed and it takes of it, as you say for the different requirements

 

Beer just came shooting out my nose!

Paraphrase: We don't know if/when the cell shorted. We don't know what the circuit was doing if/when the short happened. We don't know if it could happen again. If it happens again we will contain the failure to the battery compartment(we think).

The financial pressure must be incredible but that's no reason to do shyte like this.

 

Let me guess....that "fix" is.....Remove all batteries from all 787s ?!

 

It's a sad sad day for a company that was once the premier airplane builder in the world.
Embarrassing.

 

If I was managing this situation I would have a team working on retrofitting lead-acid batteries and whatever rewiring this entails. They need to get these planes flying again rebuilding the companies reputations.

Another team can continue working on making these lithium ion batteries workable for use in an aeroplane. Once 200% sorted they can start creating 787-1 after the prototype has been tested for a full year in service (transporting company staff or freight around or something).
Pete

 

Boeing 787 Battery Fire Was Difficult to Control - Yahoo! News

Jeeeeezzz...

I knew the Li+ electrolyte was organic but this sounds like a real F. Imagine if this happened in the air?

The first firefighter to enter the plane reported seeing "a white glow about the size of a softball" through the smoke using his hand-held heat-imaging camera. He applied another type of fire extinguishing agent, which somewhat reduced the glow. An airport security camera video showed white smoke billowing from the underside of the plane.
Another firefighter entering the electronics bay reported "no visibility" because of the smoke and directed another burst from a fire extinguisher at a hot spot, but the battery seemed to rekindle. A fire captain applied the extinguisher again for about five minutes, reducing the fire. But the battery was still emitting heavy smoke and hissing loudly. Liquid was flowing down its side. Lithium ion batteries contain a flammable electrolyte.
Firefighters finally decided to remove the battery from the plane, but its "quick-disconnect knob" was melted, hampering the process. Investigators later found little balls of melted and cooled stainless steel, apparently from the cases of the battery's eight cells. That type of steel melts at 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit, one document noted. The bottom of the battery box was bent from where firefighters pried it out.

 

Simple ... the plane would crash!

Pete