CS market compared to Scud Market

yes.

 

It will put pressure on the 360CS prices to dip further

 

no offense..... but does it really matter??

1/2 will say higher $ for CS.....other 1/2 will say lower.

again, no offense but its a car!! I assume a very small percentage of Ferrari buyers, actually think they are investing in their car...

these threads always seem to just bring out the worst in people... and it gets ugly in a hurry...

just my $.o2

 

Just the opposite actually.

Assume one car has nothing to do with the other. Assume you're comparing a Picasso to a Dali. It's just supply and demand. Those influencing the market don't care which one goes faster 0-60. "Performance" has absolutely nothing to do with this market.

The CS will continue to rise as they get more and more popular. They get more and more popular because there aren't many of them and the number that exist keeps getting smaller and smaller.

It's supply and demand and the CS will continue to rise in value for years to come.

 

I don't think so. Being that the Scuds have depreciated a bit further in the last 12-18 months, the CS prices have remained constant and for particular examples, have risen. Both cars appeal to a similar buyer, but the CS is holding its value much better.

It really comes down to supply and demand. More Scuds in this case = lower asking/selling prices.

Fewer CS = higher asking/selling prices.

The way owners regard the CS its no wonder why they command the prices they do.


Edit: Jason beat me to it as I was typing.

 

Scud market is not as bad as these Forums make you believe. It’s just getting hit with normal depreciation that occurs with adding miles. I have been following Scud prices for a while now . Retail prices of 08 favored colors and options were in 180- 185 range and 2009 in 190 k last year. Its dropped about 10k now in retail space. Scud wholesale for under 10 k mile cars are in 160-170k now. A drop of 10 k from last year…all part of normal depreciation.

CS has certainly climbed in values but not reached up to Scud retail values level for similar miles and options cars. IMO there is a retail pricing delta of 40k between these cars.

 

Exactly.

 

lets see where CS values are mid-year as more come for sale. It won't take too many for sale for that market to start adjusting downward as well. Its all about emotions and perceptions of value.

 

Yeah as the gap closes , some CS owners may upgrade to Scud's that could play with the prices too.

 

the CS isn't (yet) in the realm of being a truly collectable Ferrari. There is no reason to believe that the CS prices won't adjust downward following the Scuds. If the Scuds dropped in price by $10k in the last 30-60 days (which they did) expect CS values to reflect this.

I love both cars. Owned a Scud. There is no comparison between the 2. If I were in the market today for another A to A Ferrari I would get another Scuderia.

 

Yes there is. The CS is much more rare than the Scud. It also has a much stronger following than the Scud (A lot of fchatters have had both and either kept the Stradale or bought another one after a Scud.).

The Scud was a great car, faster and more capable than the Stradale but it lacked the rawness of the Stradale.

 

sir andrew has spoken.

Compare how much a CS depreciated from 04 to 08 and how much the Scuds depreciated from 08 to 12...no comparison percentage wise...also consider the CS had a lower sticker price...so the fact they are even close in absolute price today is a win for the CS.

 

There is a real parallel comparison 04 to 08 for CS and 08 to 12 for scud. I can only reflect UK prices but CS base price in 04 was £132k and they were trading with official F car dealers in 08 for £85k, I know, I nearly bought one! Scud base price was £172k in 08 and they were trading with official F car dealers in 12 for £130k.
For the first 4 year period the CS dropped 35% and the Scud 25%. Both 4 year periods reflect significant drops. CS has since strengthened massively, it is a great car, what will happen for Scud, who knows. 1288 CS's and 1850 Scuds (tops), we will see.

 

CS has a strong following on Fchat! Other forums the Scud is stronger.
Rarer, yes. 3 Scuds for every 2 CS's. No lack of rawness in a Scud, CS sounds superb, Scud needs aftermarket exhaust to match it.

 

How many Scud owners have you seen buying a CS after selling Scud? I know atleast 2 CS owners buying Scud after selling CS. Ferrarichat is not the whole market. Both are great cars , some like raw cars plus newest tech , some prefer just raw.

My Scud's former owner had a CS and did not like it as much as Scud. he said It sounds good , but does not shift like Scud F1 and more specifically feels very slow.

IMO Scuderia intial MSRP pricing was way too high compared to 430. That huge delta is what caused a big drop coupled with bad economy in 2009. CS to 360 delta wasnt as big at launch MSRP.

 

Agree on the economy but again just to point out, UK price of CS was £30k more than 360, a larger % hike over standard car and prices tanked more than Scud over first 4 years!

 

Interestingly, in RHD markets, there is still a sizeable gap between the two. and I include the 430 for comparrision.

In the UK, it would appear CS are about 100k sterling vs 120k for Scuds. 430 Coupes look to be about 75k.

And here in Australia, CS is worth about A$175k vs Scuds $275k. 430 coupes going for high 1s.

Could someone please post the prices for the US market?

 

My technical opinion is that the 360 Modena and 360 Challenge Stradale are weak cars (for my drag racing, time trials, autoX, and spirited driving use).

The proof is the comparison of maintenance bills (excluding brakes) between the 360 Challenge and the F430 Challenge. I exclude brakes because the 360 Challenge runs on conventional steel rotors while the F430C runs on CCM rotors. Most F430C drivers have switched to steel rotors, so brakes maintenance costs are even between cars.

My Scuderia vs. Stradale comparison:

- The Stradale has a weak engine
- The Stradale has a slow transmission
- The Stradale differential wears out with my type of driving
- The Scuderia has the best flappy paddles transmission I have driven (includes Porsche PDK in Cayman, 991, 997, Boxster, Audi DSG, BMW DCT, 458 DCT, MP4-12C Graziano unit)
- The Scuderia has the best differential I have experienced (2nd place goes to the 2008-2012 BMW M3).
- The Stradale looks more beautiful
- The Scuderia has a more expensive finish (materials and craftsmanship)
- The Stradale is louder at easy pace
- The Scuderia is louder at strong pace
- The Stradale engine sounds better
- The Stradale is slow
- The Scuderia is more reliable

Prices are driven by supply and demand, there are 3-to-4 times more Scuderias than Stradales in U.S.

There are opinions on people that have driven or owned both, telling the Stradale has a more raw feeling than the Scuderia. This is just a small difference in alignment (a $120 job at a Good Year shop), and exhaust tuning (choose the flavor you want for exhaust brand and make it work your way).

I personally, started to research on the Stradale back in 2006 to replace my 2004 GT3. In the end, I found out that my 04 GT3 was faster, more reliable, cheaper to maintain, and I already had it.

Later on, it came the time to replace my 04 GT3, and the candidates were the C6Z06, F430, Stradale and 07 GT3 RS. I went with the GT3 RS, but the F430 vs. Stradale analysis brought the F430 as the preferred car.

Short time with my 07 GT3 RS which I found underpowered, and back again to decide which car to get next: Gallardo SL, F430, 09 GT2. At this time the Stradale was out of the equation due to the vast amount of information I had before from considering it twice. Fortunately, I ended up with a Scuderia, and I droll about the car performance almost 4 years later.

For Cars and Coffee and garage queens, the Stradale is a better option. But if the car is to be driven rather than babied, I would only consider the following:

- Scuderia
- 16M
- '12 and up 458 Italia
- 458 Spider
- 599 GTB HGTE
- 599 GTO

Market value has nothing to do with performance, it is supply vs. demand. I think the Scuderia is the best value for the money today, and the Stradale is a good value as well, and the 458 is in its way to reach sub-$220k in the next 12 months.

I also think that a 6-speed manual 360 and F430 are going to become more valuable as time passes, especially the open top ones.

 

I have an interesting comment about the CS.

IMO, it was not fully appreciated when it was introduced.

First, it was the first time Ferrari had made a kind of "super sport" version of it's most popular model with no carpets, radio, etc. Some thought it was a bit odd. It's also really loud. And it had these funky expensive brakes that few knew about. And, it has this crazy expensive stripe down the middle. And it rides hard compared the standard 360. And it was only available with and F1 box. And it was just plain expensive.

Second the F430 was just around the corner and we all know, the F430 is a great car (different than the CS but a great car none the less). It stole some of the CS's thunder as the CS is a rather conservative revamping of the exterior shape.

Third: It's difficult to tell a CS from a 360 unless you've got a trained eye. When cars look too similar, people don't give it maybe enough credit that it really is different.


Today, in hindsight, its easy to see how great the CS was and is. The Scud was some kind of copy of the original and made in too many numbers. The Scud is a great car but the CS was first.

Will Scud prices be lower than comparable CS's? It's possible.

 

Rad is on the money.

Just wanted to add:
The steering response feels lighter and a touch sharper in the CS, which gives the sensation that the car is "more agile", and also, this sensation is exponentially amplified because the CS has a tendency to want to go "360" whereas the Scuderia feels significantly more planted.

And a full Tubi'd CS (headers, pipes, exhaust) is an amazing noise and uniquely so. I have yet to hear a Scuderia sound like my ex tubi'd CS.

 

Correct. It is the 0.15 degrees of rear toe-in (per corner) in the Stradale compared to the 0.25 degrees rear toe-in in the Scuderia.

Set either car to the other's setting, and they would swap feeling.

If you want to drift, put on a good show on and out of the tarmac, run 0.15 degrees toe-in at the rear of the Stradale/F430/360/Scuderia. Be sure to be on top of your game (driving wise).

If you want the car to be fast, stable, and stay on the tarmac, run 0.25 degrees rear toe-in per corner.

The 360 engine with headers/test-pipes/muffler sounds much better than the F430 engine. It took me a while to get the sound I wanted in the Scuderia, many exhausts tested, and now I have what I wanted, but nowhere near the sound experience on a 360, or even better a 355.

 

Rad man, I respect your input and have even dialed my personal Stradale into some of your suspension settings just to test your theories (yes I do have that kind of time on my hands). But I wont let you state that the Stradale is "slow". Its not.

It may not have the brutish power of the Scud, but it does have enough to put up a good fight. However, with that said, it must be driven differently - with momentum & much effort spent on not scrubbing off speed.

The Strad is pretty good on the tracks I frequent, maybe not parking lot exercises - but good everywhere else. And thats coming from an ex-GT3 owner as well.

With all due respect my man - Perhaps if you had spent the time I have in one (quality time as an owner / racer) you may have a different sort of the vast amount of information that you have amassed.

 

The CS is slow? In what world?

The CS, like the Scud, is a track biased road car, designed for occasional track fun. The CS was the original, and they got the formula right. Just like they did with the F40. The F50 was a 'better' car, but it just doesn't tick the boxes the same way as the original, which mirrors the CS/Scud.

When I want to go truly 'hard core' at the track, I wouldn't do it in either the CS or the Scud. I had a March/Cosworth Indycar for that. When I have had the CS on track with Scuds, I didn't have a huge challenge handling them. Frankly, the difference (if any) in a road car is irrelevant, except for magazine racers.

As for values, I have had my CS for 2.5 years and have turned dow offers which would realize a 25-30% increase in value over what I bought it for. There aren't too many modern Ferraris or any cars for that matter that are appreciating at this time. If it's up in a terrible economy, what will it do when the economy is rockin' and demand really goes wild?

 

Well said Dino.

I think ownership is key. At least it certainly is in this case.