Sitting in Narita watching the go arounds

Took off from LAX a few days ago. Quite a bit of rain at 3:00am. Landed in Tokyo (Narita) yesterday. Nice day, 70 degrees. Today it's a pretty wild day. Winds out of the SE, which typically means a really bumpy approach with windshear. I just watched 8 straight go arounds. Some at a few hundred feet. Some right on the deck. One, Korean A330, looked really sketchy. The view out my hotel isn't good enough for pictures or video, but I'm sure they'll be plenty of youtube videos from today.

You know you must like flying when you wish you were in the air making an approach right now.....
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Wow Lou! I do love your posts in this section....

Safe travels Lou...

Jedi

 

+1 Great stuff!

[Not difficult, I hasten to add ]

Not sure what "METAR" is, but seems to me it lists two, very different, wind directions! [I'd be completely ****ed at this point! ]

Another question, do the "rules" differ between pax & cargo? I guess (always dangerous!) there's gotta be a point when you divert for example - Based on type?

Pardon my ignorance, but I recall (years back) after landing at (generally) LHR, the flight deck *had to* announce "a fully automated landing". I liked to think I could tell the difference - A *pilot* would let 'er drift and bounce some. The 'puter was always screwing around!

Cool! I'm gonna say you'd fly her in?

OTOH, Korea A330 was "computerized"?

Cheers,
Ian

 

I couldn't find any go arounds from this week on Youtube, yet. There is a huge number of them from about a year ago that I've watched a few times. Is there something about NRT that lends itself to having these conditions frequently? One thing I've noticed about the successful crosswind landing videos from NRT, they don't mess around with getting the wheels on the ground once they decide to do so.

There are a couple of crosswind landings from NRT a couple of days ago - and here is a couple of NCA arrivals from a day or so ago - one JA06KZ and the other JA13KZ - either of them you?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFP6Gjpf6vY]Nippon Cargo Airlines (NCA) Boeing 747-8F (JA13KZ) landing at NRT/RJAA (Tokyo - Narita) RWY 34L - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2zYASdfIdo][?????] Nippon Cargo Airlines (NCA) JA06KZ landing @ Narita RWY16R [March 6, 2013] - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7Defza_YDM]Thai Airways A380 crosswind landing at Narita Airport. - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui23M4ljVTg]Crosswind landing AirAsia Japan @Narita airport - YouTube[/ame]

 

METAR is short for.....well, I'm not sure exactly what it's short for. But its the meteorological airport report. Basically the airport weather. It's updated about 10 minutes before the hour, each hour in the USA, unless conditions warrant it to change sooner. That pic is of an iphone app. It's a little confusing. The wind is 230 at 28 gusting to 43. The wind shown further down is a "trend" wind. Wind forecast to change to 310 at 25 gusting to 37. With a 230 wind, runway 16 is in use. Almost a direct crosswind. As the wind shifted past 250 degrees, the runway changed to 34.

No different rules between cargo and pax. Some different rules between operating airlines and countries. I believe most US carriers don't have a crosswind limit. The demonstated crosswind is typically 30 kts. That doesn't mean the plane can't do more. It's typically not a limitation. In Japan, there is a hard limitaion that varies with runway condition. In the 747 on a dry runway, the limit is a steady 30 kts crosswind. If it's more than that, we can continue, but need to recheck by 500 ft. If at 500 it's more, we must go around.

Go arounds are usually at the pilots discrection. But if a WINDSHEAR warning goes off in the cockpit, it's a go around. Some of the go arounds yesterday were probably at an altitude of 500. They were most likely WINDSHEAR warning go arounds. Others were quite low. I found some youtube videos. I'll try and post them. One shows a JAL 767 going around after appearing to land. Unfortunately, I think the cameraman was getting blown around more than the plane. Not a great video.


I just returned from a Hong Kong turn. Winds were blowing, but down the runway. Still the approach was a bit of a handful with some shear and turbulence.

ATIS RJAA (Narita) S2141 (Special weather at 2141Z) Winds 320 at 20 gusting to 31.
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There are a couple of crosswind landings from NRT a couple of days ago - and here is a couple of NCA arrivals from a day or so ago - one JA06KZ and the other JA13KZ - either of them you?



Not me. I landed in Narita on the 9th. JA07KZ, a 400. Was actually a nice landing. Maybe it'll turn up.

 

Here is one from yesterday - looks like fun.. (oops, not from yesterday- just posted yesterday. sorry)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1vmbsbgVkM]Storm!! Polar Air Cargo Boeing 747-400F Crosswind Landing - YouTube[/ame]

 

Here's one


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_bELDyrbFM]????????!!?????????JAL?Boeing767 - YouTube[/ame]

 

Not feeling so bad about my "windy" landings now....holy mother...think i will stick to fixing cars for a living.

 

Looks like he aborted at the last possible moment! Being a passenger on that flight must have been no fun.

 

Coming in pretty hot.
I bet his heart rate was right up there, and kudos to him for not forcing it.

 

Looks like fun to me...

 

Yeah, on days like this, everyone comes in 20 kts faster than normal. At least thats the maximum additive on approach for the 747. I believe on all Boeings. It gives you a safety margin against gusts. It does give you a flatter appoach and the possibility to float if you don't put in down.

Here's another video. You'll notice on some of the go arounds, the landing gear is left down for awhile. On a typical go around, the gear comes up rather quickly...as soon as you have a positive rate of climb on the VSI. But during a windshear go around, the gear is left down on some aircraft type due to the added drag of the gear doors opening.

Here's the go around in the 747:

Normal go around

1 Push TOGA...autothrottles give you a 2000fpm climb
2. Flaps 20
3 Positive rate, gear up
Pitch starts around 12 degrees and varies to maintain speed.

Windshear go around

1. Disconnect autothrottle, max thrust
2. Do not change gear/flap configuration
3. Pitch to 15 or stall shaker, whatever occurs fist.

747-400 and -8 differences.

In the 400, you can hear power changes in the cockpit. In the -8, you can't. I miss the feedback of hearing the thrust changes. It's not as much of a problem when you're flying, but when the guy next to you is, it's hard to tell what he's doing with the power.

You typically don't look at the engine instruments too much once on approach.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSzmnPl1VZM&feature=player_detailpage[/ame]

 

That JAL came very close to actually putting it down but I think the airplane had floated too far down the runway and he decided to go around. Conditions must have been getting worse, because most of the later approaches were being abandoned much earlier in the game. Did these guys all get down at Narita on second approaches, or would they have had to divert to Haneda or somewhere else?

 

Lou, your comment regarding when the gear should come up on a go around takes me back to the first AOG incident with one of the first 707's. The pilot, an ex DC7 captain, elected to go around when he overshot and was running out of runway. He applied power , started a climb, and yanked the gear up. Well, the climb was not immediate while the JT3's were spooling up so the airplane settled on to the runway while the gear was in transit. It went something like 3500 feet at full thrust until the engines came off. Believe it or not, AOG got the airplane back in the air in 30 days after they replaced the entire belly, struts, engines, landing gear, and fire damaged stuff. I think that I remember that it was a TWA. Prop procedures were kicked in when jet procedures should have been followed...thrust, spool up, positive climb established, THEN gear up. The first three or four years of 707 ops there were some bizarre incidents like this. AOG was incredible to be a part even if your input was small.

 

On the 747, it's possible to contact the ground during a go around. Says so right in the airplane flight manual. Of course, todays engines spool much faster than those in the past. They also automatically increase the engine idle speed when landing flaps are selected. That said, the 747-8 with GEnX engines seem slow to spool from idle.

 

I'm still in Japan. Have a simulator flight later today. It's about 7am now. Might be another one of those days.....
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Yeah, it got worse as the front passed. Wind then switched to the north. Of the approaches I watched, some came back, some didn't. I saw a Delta 747 land on the second attempt. Also a Vietnam. FedEx 777 came once, I never saw it again. Many JAL 767s. Hard to tell if it was the same plane, or a different one.

Obviously, weather and fuel are the main concerns when it comes to decision making. You've just gone around, you know the weathers not great. That said, each approach is unique to itself. The short haul flights can usually tanker extra fuel to make multiple attempts or hold as necessary. The long haul flights typically don't have that option. Usually 2 attempts, and then divert to the alternate.

A go around and typical pattern back to landing in the 747 uses a little less than 10,000 lbs of fuel. But to simplify it, lets say it's 10,000. On a flight from say San Francisco to Tokyo, you decide to add another 10,000 lbs of fuel prior to departure. To carry that 10,000 lbs of extra fuel for the 11 hour flight, you comsume about 2000 lbs of it. So you end up with 8000 extra when you arrive. On the other hand, if you departed Kansai to Tokyo, you'd have just about all the 10,000 as the flights only about an hour.

Also, long haul cargo flights typically go out close to max gross weight, and there isn't room for extra fuel to begin with.

Diversion thought: You decide to divert. In this case, most aircraft would go to Haneda. Winds in Haneda will be the same. Haneda does offer more runways though, and a headwind landing would be possible. Then fuel burn to Haneda for us is around 10,000 lbs. So now you arrive there with enough fuel for 2 approaches. Things would get real interesting if you miss the first approach there!

All this said, I've maybe done only a handful of missed approaches in 20 years on the 747. And I've diverted maybe 3 times.

 

Second attempt...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hya3yQCc_lY&feature=player_detailpage]Go Around&Crosswind landing Vietnam Airlines A321@Narita airport - YouTube[/ame]

 

Is that dust in those videos?

 

Yeah, blowing dust. Here's a more recent report. My room faces away from the runway. I went upstairs and watched a few landings about an hour ago. Saw 6 approaches, 1 went missed.

The area near the airport is mainly rice paddies. This time of year, the paddies haven't been flooded yet. So a lot of areas with exposed dirt.
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Gotta love the big beer vending machine in the bottom of the Narita Hilton.

 

I notice that all of the aircraft are crabbing in the same direction, and your last notice confirms this. I presume that all of these landings are on 16R? And I presume that there is a good reason why Narita didn't build a runway 22 (which would eliminate all of these crosswind scenarios)?

(I find it interesting that Haneda also has runways 16, but also a runway 22.....)

 

Yeah, one in our hotel also (Excel Tokyu). Small earthquake as I'm writing this.
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Yeah, runway 16R. Winds out of the SW here can be really bad. Even with only 15 kts, it can get really bumpy.

A lot of land issues in Narita. The airport can't acquire the land in order to build. A runway 22 would be nice. As Haneda is on the water, they can always build out into it.