Automatic Transmissions

There seems to be some confusion about the automatic transmissions used in some Maserati models. I would like to use this thread to post any general information or questions. I will start:

In the Khamsin and, (I believe), in the Quattroporte III, the transmissions were supplied by Borg-Warner.

My understanding is that B-W was an American independent manufacturer at the time and made essentially the same transmission for Ford and Chrysler but with slight modifications to suit each customer's specifications.

Our transmissions are the B-W model configured as the Chrysler TorqueFlight 727. This would have been supplied on any large displacement, high torque, high horsepower Chrysler, Dodge or Plymouth of that era. (The 383, 440 and 426 cubic inch engines were the same across Chrysler's three brands).

This leads me to suspect that the backs of the Maserati engine blocks might have the same mating pattern as those (American) cars.

Questions:

Can anybody comment authoritatively on the configuration of the mating surface between the engine and transmission on the Khamsin or the Quatroportte III ?

Does anyone know about the auto trans equipped Ghibli or Indy?

 

Borg-Warner (and Ford) were competitors to Chrysler.

Chrysler developed the Torqueflite in 1959, the same basic design still exists today. The 727 was launched in 1962.

More info here: The legendary torqueflite automatic transmission

Really detailed overview here: Tom Hand's guide to the Chrysler torqueflite automatic transmission

The QP3 uses the Torqueflite A727, all standard down to the shifter. The torque converter is also standard Mopar. Although I don't recall the specific type/part number, I can look it up for you if you need it.

The only non-standard part is the bell housing, which was cast and machined specifically to accommodate the Maserati V8 and the starter motor upside down and on the wrong side of the engine as compared to standard.

If you're lucky, the Torqueflite 727 was used across the board by Maserati, but I seem to recall that they went with Borg-Warner for the other cars. The 727 is bulletproof, and will last forever. Jaguar used Borg-Warners for some time, Ferrari used the Ford unit in their 400i.

Hope this helps.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

QP3,

Thanks for the information and the links. Particularly, this is key:

I was told that it was the other way around. That Maserati changed the backs of the engines to accommodate the transmission.

Carmine

 

And that seems in line with the fact that qpIII engines for the manual and automatic gearboxes are different. Why would that be if the auto was adjusted to the Maserati engine?

 

It might be a bit of both.

You could ask Jay Witham as he's owned 3 QPIIIs and is a Torqueflight expert as well.

Also check out the QPIII parts manual as there were 5 spds so maybe it will reflect what's going on.

 

Thanks everybody, for your comments.

I just climbed under my Khamsin with some interweb photos and identification charts. The trans does not appear to be a Chrysler Torqueflight nor a Ford C6. I do not have B-W id charts but the configuration seems to be in accordance with the MIE Khamsin B-W manual.

Generally in manufacturing, the lower quantity production will adjust to accommodate the higher quantity production. If B-W was selling two hundred thousand units per year and Maserati was casting maybe one thousand engine blocks, I would imagine Maserati had different foundry patterns for the backs of the blocks to suit each application.

With such low production numbers, I don't understand why Maserati would have used a different automatic transmission for the QP3 and K, but it seems they did so.

Still exploring this. Of course I have an ulterior motive, (which I am not yet ready to reveal).

 

I have heard that the rear ends of the engines were different depending on whether automatic or manual transmissions were planned fitted.

IIRC William mentioned that, and posted a few photo's showing the back of his block. I have a few pics, but they're closeups showing the flexplate and crank, unfortunately not the block itself.

I've also been told from Mopar people who've seen my bell housing that it's non-standard. My pics are here, compare with Mopar sites:

Torqueflite Automatic Transmissions Remove Bellhousing Photo 2

Torqueflite 727 Guapo - IH PARTS AMERICA

Mopar Trans ID Guide - Car Craft

AFAIK Chrysler made 4 standard bell housing patterns.

Hope this helps shed light on your mystery. Regardless, the Khamsin did not have a 727 fitted, I think you can be pretty certain of that.

PM me if you want Jay Withams new email address. He knows a lot especially about the QP3.

 

have a look

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/partTable.asp?M=3&Mo=715&A=1&B=42645&S=

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/partTable.asp?M=3&Mo=715&A=1&B=42640&S=

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/partTable.asp?M=3&Mo=715&A=1&B=42631&S=

This last one shows four different blocks. Two are for automatic.

So even though the bell housing is a separate piece for the manual and an incorporated part of the automatic tranny there are still different blocks according to the parts manual.

 

Today, while I was at my shop, (actually I rent space in an industrial building), my friend Pat, (who is retired from the transmission repair business), happened to be there also. My Khamsin is up on a storage lift so we had a look under it. Pat immediately identified the transmission in his typical Paterson New Jersey way:

Pat: It's a f*****g Ford. It's a small Cruise.

Me: A Ford Cruise-o-Matic?

Pat: Yeah.

Me: It's not a Ford FMX?

Pat: Same s**t.

(New Jersey to English translation note: The transmission was known variously by two differnt names: "small case Cruise-o-Matic" and "FMX").

Me: But did Borg-Warner make them for Ford?

Pat: Yeah. It's a f*****g Borg-Warner. They made them for Ford. It's a small Cruise. Except for the bellhousing. They had to make it to fit the motor.

- - - - - -

So on the Khamsin, with a fair amount of certainty:
. The automatic transmission was manufactured by Borg-Warner, (which we already knew from the MIE manual).
. The guts are the same as a Ford small case Cruise-o-Matic, (also known as FMX). Quite likely the torque converter is the same as a Ford part number also.

The bellhousing being a separate casting from the gearbox is significant. Possibly the Khamsin engine blocks were the same for either transmission option. This would be a great help for anyone contemplating a conversion from auto to manual.

 

I once converted a Ghibli spyder from auto to 5-speed. The engine blocks were the same but there were many differences in the chassis. It was a pain in the a*s .... something I will never do again.

Ivan

 

Ivan,

I am sorry for your pain. But a Ghibli with an automatic transmission is an aberration. So you suffered for a noble cause.

Other than the transmission mounts, you say the chassis was different? Or do you mean the car's floor sheet metal? Obviously one would have to accommodate the clutch linkage and pedals.

Carmine

 

The Ferrari 400 Automatic, 400i Automatic, 412 Automatic, 456 GTA, and 456M GTA all used modified GM automatic transmissions, not Ford.

 

Thanks for weighing in on that. I had heard that also, but not being a Ferrari guy I did not know for certain.

 

On the automatic Ghiblis the center tunnel is wider, therefore the spacing of the two large center tubular members is different. This means that the transmission mount from a manual car will be too short. I ended using a mount from a Sebring and modifying it. To make matters worst the location of the mount is different so do not expect things to align.

Ivan

 

I think I have posted these before but this is the rear of the QPIII with ZF 5 speed. I am told it is quite different at the back of the motor.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Carmine,

More specific to where I think you're headed ... Back in the late 1980's there was a guy in the SF Bay Area who had his Khamsin modified for better cooling, a different gear ratio I believe so he could go faster and also he had a 4spd Mercedes automatic tranny installed.
I saw it being worked on at the dealership and then saw the car at a Maserati club outing.

I think ALL of this work was carried out by British Motors in SF owned by the Qvale family. But it's possible that the tranny was done by someone else or that I'm combining two cars into one.

If you want to do some further detective work you could try and contact Jeff Qvale and see if they might have a record of who the customer was and equally import what the vin# of that Khamsin was.

I'll reach out to my now retired partner to see if he's got any skinny on who the perps were and if you need any further leg work done I can usually be contacted in my booth at Sams Grill on most any day except Sunday when I usually sail out of Sausalito on the Santana ...

John's Grill seafood steak salad pasta restaurant in San Francisco

Sam Spade

 

Thanks for that guidance, Ivan. I am most of the way along to setting up a metal fabrication and machine shop so I am pretty certain I could make anything I need. I would not cut the car though.

Thanks for posting those photos, William. It's good to have some insight into the general configuration of the engine. Side track: I wonder if the five speed QP3's were the same engine blocks as the Khamsins?

Bob, You are on the right track about my line of thinking. It's actually a low priority project but I am thinking of converting my Khamsin to a five speed.

Sam, Thanks for the offer of detective work. Tell your partner to be careful about following shady women into dark alleys. And the bird's a fake.

 

Having lived there 25 years Carmine I can tell that quite frequently the "birds" are not always what they seem. Always check out the equipment carefully before proceeding LOL

5 speed auto or manual?

I think an auto with 4 or more gears would be cool and maybe easier than the manual.

Where would you find all that stuff now?