Doesn't the 5 valve per cylinder set up have something to do with the high pitched sound of the 360 and 355? The 430 is 4 valves per cylinder right? I have Agency catless headers, Larini test pipes, and the factory can with the valves unplugged. Epic does not begin to describe the noise that comes out of the back of my CS.
Yes look at me look at me, no Mickey Mouse! I rarely film in-cabin, but for Mickey Mouse I'm going to make an exception. Hot laps & some sideways action to come for sure as previously stated. I shan't derail anymore, back to our usial mundane Scuderia vs CS programme. In terms of market value, there are peaks & there are lulls, this is definitely a peak for the CS. I remember not too long ago when I had my CS it was in the 95-120 range and stayed more or less there, then it peaked for a bit to 140-150s, dipped back down to 120-130s then peaked again at 140-150s and now up to ridiculous-to-me 160-180s. And at each of those turns everyone had some compelling justification. Well, I wonder perhaps if the Scuderia could prove to be even more compelling down the road: - The Ferrari blessed with the Michael Schumacher touch: ushered in the Manettino, separate suspension control etc all that is now Ferrari staple - Arguably the first reliable modern Ferrari - Last of its lineage to sport the unique heart pumping single clutch SuperFast F1 - Just as raw as anything that preceded it - Eschues many of the classic lines and cues of its predecessor 360 as well as the iconic Enzo - Last of its lineage to not be nanny controlled: car is driven by the driver not the computer, but still encompasses the core technological leaps that made the Scuderia Ferrari F1 campaign at the time such a great success; most successful in Ferrari's racing history I might add - Same prolific name as the F1 team, reinforcing the powerful racing heritage that is Ferrari - Limited production - Just as fun as its predecessor but heaps faster & yet still equally fast as its successor (non-scud version of the 458 at least)
If you call over 3,500 units produced including the 16M, limited production, sure. There were just over 1,300 Challenge Stradales produced, and well over 3,500 Scuderias produced. Obviously the 430 Scuderia is the faster car, but 'better' is subjective. They're both great cars. However long term, I think the CS will hold it's value better.
Well said. I have been guilty of tire kicking both the Strad and the Scud. Still up in the air on spending big money (to me) on a car that I also want to track. I have tracked miata's and GT3 (sold) and will continue to do so with the miata. Also considering Skip Barber Racing Series. But I'm a little nervous of doing the same with the Ferrari's because of the costs. Anything can happen on the track whether its your fault, other drivers fault or something you can't control (oil or antifreeze on the track). The best purchase prices (not asking) I have found on the Scud: 4 08's from $155,000 -$165,000 & 3 09's from $165,000 - $175,000. The cheapest purchase prices(not asking selling prices) on the Strads I have found were $99,000 with 50,000 miles, $125,000 with 33,000 miles and $136,000 with 10,000 miles (all no stripe). CS with a factory stripe: $145,000 with $11,000 miles, $151,000 with 10,000 miles. All with in the last month or two and all but one sold.
Well said. The best deal on a CS right now for me is at $136,000. There were 3 Scuds that could of been had for $155,000 to $165,000 recently (all sold). So there is about a $20,000 gap. With condition, color, CS stripe, and Scud mileage changing the numbers.
Last I checked no one knew the actual Scuderia production numbers and best educated estimate (high end of the range I might add) was 1,850 not 3,500 (Coupes only) and if you add the 16M (499) still won't break the 3,000 mark. And I never mentioned "better" because I know that word is obtusely subjective in this topic. It's easy for anyone to voice an opinion base on current sentiment. I'll bet pink slips if any of us was asked this question way back when the CS was in the 100-120 range we'd all say no, the CS won't hold value.
1,850 is too low. I've gotten my numbers from both serial number collectors and from people within Ferrari and while I don't have an exact number I know it's over 3,500 units total. It's actually simpler than getting a more solid number than the 1,300+ CS's as people from Ferrari have given me more definitive numbers with regard to the 430 Scuderia. The Scuderia made up a small amount of total production for 2007, and a rather large amount of the production percentage in 2008 and 2009 and then a substantially smaller amount in 2010. In fact many more Scuderias were produced than 'standard' 430s during 2009. Some 16Ms were completed along side the 458s, in 2010 including at least 5 US spec cars. With over 20,000 430s including coupes, spiders, Scuderias, and 16Ms produced, 3,500 Scuderias it's not actually that large of a number, it's just many more than the CS.
I bought mine in the same range, but I never expected it to go up, esp during those times 08-09. I bought mine to drive with the expectation that it would probably depreciate further. So you're claiming you bought one knowing it would appreciate?
I find it interesting how your number is double of most folks who also claim to have inside connections and information. Who should we believe then lol.
I heard it directly from Luca Montezemolo that there were 3200 CS's built. But of course they never released that number to make all you CS drivers feel special. Kidding. This whole 'I know someone inside ferrari' BS is lame. I just find it funny and amusing how CS owners on this thread are hell bent on depreciating the Scud with their hearsay. Why??? Just be happy that your CS is appreciating. Good for you. Bravo. Carry on. I own a scud because I think it looks 1000x better than any other Ferrari model and performs pretty well too. But who cares. . . .
Whom ever you like, but the percentages don't lie. In 2007 Ferrari made 6,500+ cars, a little under 8% of those cars were Scuderias, in 2008 Ferrari made 6,600 cars over 25% of which were Scuderias, in 2009 Ferrari made just under 6,300 cars 20% of which were Scuderias.Which makes 3430 units as a conservative estimate including the 16Ms. Why is it difficult to believe the numbers? Ferrari made 95% of the CS production in 2004, so even if they only built as many Scuderias year to year as the CS it would make 3705. Do you believe that Ferrari produced less Scuderias over the course of a full production year than the CS? It was a better seller than the standard 430 in 2008. The fact they made 3,500 Scuderias does not make it any less of great car, I've driven a few, they are amazing machines. It's seems like you've taken offense to my suggestion that they made 'so many' Scuderias, it's not my intention to belittle the car one bit, it's a great piece of kit.
It's a fantastic car and I would be happy to own either a CS or a Scuderia. You can't go wrong with either one .
Sorry, but your numbers seem a bit too loosey goosey. First you claim some inside source on concrete numbers and serial # collection, now you're saying its some form of calculated annual percentage? Where did these random percentages come from? And no, no one ever thought the Scuderia production numbers would be less than CS, nor has anyone correlated production #s to how great/not great the car performs other than yourself. I'm not at all offended, just puzzled at how you arrived at these seemingly random #s. As I mentioned many posts earlier, I bought the Scuderia and ultimately sold the CS because I just have more fun behind the wheel of the Scuderia, and went for the Scuderia keys 9 out of 10 times. Thats the only reason why I personally sold the CS, not because I thought my scud was going to appreciate. Sure in hindsight, if I had known CS prices would be this ridiculous I would've just let it continue to sit around...who wouldn't want to pocket free money? As Stevely has pointed out, everyone seems hell bent to depreciate the scuderia...and yet the CS can't match/check off any of the points I listed earlier but still "will continue to hold better value". Based on? Nothing more than hearsay?
There is nothing random about the numbers. I was simply pointing out if you don't believe the fact that I have good sources for my numbers, which I do, and several Fchatters can attest to that fact, including a couple FOG members, the percentages don't lie. The following are publicly available numbers from Ferrari: The 430 in all of it's various forms encompassed 75% of the total production from 2005-late 2009 so there are 20,000 plus units. Ferrari gave a report that broke down the production percentages to dealerships that requested the report, the report was also give to VIP clients upon request. I saw this report a couple years ago, thanks to Art Z. these numbers were also confirmed by two VIN collectors. And while I'll be the first to admit that I don't have a definitive number ex.'3752' I know there were more than the 3,500 units produced. If you want a more detailed explanation, I will be more than happy to provide one via PM. Best.
NO WAY that there were less than 3,000 Scuds produced vs the 1,300 CS. Go look at the marketplace....it doesn't lie. There are ALWAYS 3X-4X number of Scuds for sale. I much prefer the Scud, and will look into a purchase after the 458 Scud is introduced.
Doesn't seem like this was brought up so I thought I would share in the discussion. It's important to keep in mind world production vs US which I believe have has been discussed. However, keep in mind the number of Scuds and Cs that have either been shipped out of the country after they arrived in the US. When the US economy tanked I believe many cars were sold to over seas buyers. It happened for both 360cs but more so with Scuds. There had to have been many Scuds made once destined for US market brand new re-routed to different countries especially China. So there could be a reason for all these number discrepancies. Bottom line I don't see many 360cs or Scuds on the road. I have two friends that own 360cs and one that owns a Scud. I knew all of them prior to owning the cars. If I go to C&C there will be more Scuds for sure. Will be interesting to see where market is 5-10 years from now.
I actually saw a similar report, and I do not remember it stating an exact Scuderia production %, it only stated a "threshold" % eg Scuderia production will not exceed x%. If you're referring to that one then everything is out the window...it's just a max, not an actual. And again, no one expects Scuderia #s to be lower. The Italia scud #s will be huge compared to the Scuderia #s as it probably should be with so much demand in today's market and if we were to apply the same gauge everyone is so vigorously applying to the CS vs scud to Scud vs 458 mc wouldn't that only mean a similar positive upward push to scud prices upon the 458 release? Or, will it still remain "no better value" because of hearsay?
No, I'm referring to a report that broke down the percentages of produced units, that's where the percentages in my previous post come from. Interestingly it showed that the 612 made up less than 7% of the total production in 2009 and less than 10% in 2008, but that didn't help the OTO values. The factory threshold back then was over 8,000 units and it is actually a lot higher now with the new factory line, Ferrari could easily produce over 10,000 units a year now and with the new line that is their eventual goal. The Scuderia values were hit hard when the California hit the scene as many Scuderia buyers sold their cars in favor of the 'latest thing', the values were then hit again with the arrival of the 458. With that being said I think the values will stabilize when the 458MC arrives or Competizione as it's internally known, personally I hope they go with that name rather than 'Monte Carlo'. The values will level out and rise slightly in the next 5-10 years, it took years and years for the Boxer and Daytona to begin to really rise in value, but I think the same will eventually happen to both the CS and Scuderia, probably not to the same point as the Daytona, but it's bound to happen. I actually think the arrival of the hardcore 458 might help the value of the Scuderia.
Still not convinced on the #s, can you post up a copy of that doc? I'll track down that letter from my friend and post up as well. I'm also in the contrarian boat on the release of the 458 scud helping bolster the Scuderia value, partly because of the substantial price delta and expected larger production numbers. Unfortunately, I don't think I can wait it out to pick up a used 458 MC for better value...and it will be my 3rd Ferrari so I want to spec it very differently than my previous 2 Rosso Corsas
Two new colors will be introduced with the new 458MC, of course speccing an 'out of range' color is always a good way to lose money, however they do look great. US deliverers will start in mid 2014. I just hope it doesn't that name, but anything is better than LaFerrari. As for the document I was never given a copy just shown the PDF, I then wrote down several very interesting stats word for word from said document while I sat at a desk. So if you don't believe me, that's the end of it, but it was an official document from Ferrari spa. I do find it odd that you still don't believe the numbers, do you believe they made less Scuderias year to year than the CS? If so why? Everyone knows most of the CS production took place in one year so why would the production percentage of the these cars drop? As I said, even if they only made as many Scuderias year to year as the CS in 2004 it would account for more than 3,500 units total. The Scuderia began production in mid 2007 and didn't finish up completely until 2010. Ferrari's production increased quiet a bit from the CS to the Scuderia from 5500 units a year to 6500 plus. There were 17,000+ 360s built and 20,000+ 430s built, those are just facts by Ferrari's own admission. Either way if you remain skeptical, I don't think there's anything else I can say. I hope to see you at the next FOG drive, you have a great looking Scuderia .
So you personally experienced that the CS's appreciated in the last years, yet you don't think they will hold value better? Personally i don't care, i bought the car i like best, for me that is the CS. You like the Scud more, that's ok! If we all had the same taste, life would be pretty boring! I also think that both the CS and Scud will depreciate (but less then the regular 360's and 430's) in the near future, and it will take a long time, if ever, before they appreciate again. Considering the fact there are almost 3 times as many Scuds then CS's, i do tend to believe the CS indeed holds it's value better, especially considering the new list price of both cars and the selling prices these days. (my dealer once confirmed the figure 'over 3.500 units' i read here before)
Highly amusing thread/argument and I should probably apologise for butting in! I should also probably declare an interest here; I am a CS owner, though I have some good friends with Scuds and 458s. Long term value is never dictated by technology (959 v F40 is a good example). The advances in the Scud over a CS don't make it a better car over the long term. No doubt it is faster round a track (1.5 seconds at Fiorano) otherwise Ferrari aren't up to much are they? What makes a car desirable is much more than dynamics. - beautiful appearance - great sound - purity of steering and throttle response - rawness and driving challenge - competition history - lack of supply against demand - model significance The reason for relative strength in CS values is that it is not deficient in any of these areas, whereas many would argue the Scud is not particularly beautiful (subjective, but most tend to acknowledge the CS as a well resolved attractive design, fewer see the Scud like that - arguments all day on that score). Also, you could argue that the CS has more model significance being the first of the breed. Probably not that significant really. The other major point is supply. UK press reported that Ferrari expected to make twice the amount of Scuds to CSs at the Scud launch. They probably made more because the demand was high because the car was so good - in fact brilliant. The CS was built on a special line because it was a completely new idea for Ferrari, whereas the Scud went down the main production line so larger numbers would have been much easier to build. Is the Scud dynamically a better car? It has to be. Is it a better car? Depends on your point of view and what you value most. The 1.5 seconds difference around Fiorano is insignificant because even good drivers will add around 10 seconds to those times. All a bit pointless really. For the reasons above I'm afraid I do think that CS values will hold better over the long term and in a few years even the dynamic differences will not be counted in to the equation. (308 v 328, Dino v 308 GT4 etc.) Should Scud owners care? Nope! I wouldn't either because it will be years before these cars are worth significant money and I plan on driving my CS plenty in the meantime, which is why I bought it. By the time it could be worth a lot, it will be knackered! As for the 458, sorry but it is just faster in the real world. Maybe with a highly skilled racer at the wheel they could get a similar time on track due to the 458 having a road setup but in the real world, big difference. As for the driving critique, there is not a clear answer here either. If you look at Alonso in the video posted, he feeds the wheel plenty when in sharper turns. The 458 steering has ultra fast gearing so he needs to do it less but every smart driver will feed the wheel rather than get close to crossing hands, which is a rubbish technique - slow and dangerous. No serious race driving school will tell you to avoid feeding the wheel. Two hands on top of the wheel would be no good on track though. Still, the first video posted was on the road not track. People drive different ways, with different skill levels. The great thing about owning a Ferrari is they can work their magic on all comers - if you're lucky enough to be able to buy the entry ticket the show is always good.
Rad, you forgot one more point: that strads have very iittle mechanical grip, scuds much more. i spent a lot of time sideways especially when it rained or mud poured across the road as it does in malibu. i went from 9 strads in sequence [well with one 612 in there] to three scuds. i vastly prefer the scud as stated here. however now that im moving to a RHD market where i can get a strad unmolested and weakened by US pollution crap, i will revisit both cars.
- beautiful appearance. Subjective but I've always liked the CS look more. - great sound. No doubt my full tubi'd CS sounded great, stock for stock I'll take the Scuderia. - steering & throttle response. Steering felt lighter in the CS but more than likely because it tends to want to go 360 rather than by original design and throttle response is objectively heaps better in a Scuderia. - rawness & driving challenge. The Scuderia retains all this if not better w the ability to tame things down w a simple turn of the manettino when things get too hairy. The rawness is even more amplified by the better speed & acceleration prowess of the Scuderia. The CS feels sluggish in comparison & objectively is slow-er based on performance statistics (not seat of pants dyno). - lack of supply against demand. Yep, the CS is definitely lower in supply which creates the impression it is in greater demand. - competition history. I think the 430 Scuderia has more competition history w Schumacher also being part of the picture - model significance. Arguably. the last of a breed holds equal model significance as the first no? The 430 Scuderia is also the first to pave way for the manettino & other wheel-oriented controls & more direct F1 technologies, correlates also with the competition history So that tallies it up to 3 out of 7 points that the Scuderia cannot match up, of which 2 are highly subjective. Food for thought?
