is the bubble due to burst?

Autions do not a market make. All you need is two swinging dicks to make a crazy auction price. It does seem that seculatrors are getting back in. Our money is also worth 30% or more less than in 2007 so add that to the historic peak price. Yes some Dinow went for 500K, but you ca also find great ones all day long outside of autions for asking 300K.

Currently it seems anyhting Dino or pre 73 front engined V12 ferrari is hot. I wouldnt read too much into it, its a new fad. Rmember when Hemi Cudas were 500K+ cars. So the muscle car gotta have it crowd is moving onto ferraris, a lot of prices will get bid up, some so so cars will have suerlative rerstorations, the market will recorrect 30% down for most and things will go on.

I think Dinos are already recorrecting, or more acuralty put 5 Dinois a Fiat Jolly and a spider sold for extreme money in passionate bidding, this had an uplifitng effect on similar cars in the general market, but the gneral market is trading at prices similar to those before.

Every now and again a car bcomes the it car. A 288 they said looked too much loike a 308 to ever be worth much. It looks like a 308 true and its performance is shaded by a 430 if not a360 yet they are now $1million plus cars. Those that loved ferraris always loved 288's and boxers, sometimes the market coes to that wisdom too.

Can anyone explain why a Ghibli is still priced so low. Can anyone explain why a Maser 3500 a car stuck at 40K and lower is now the darling. Why is a lambo 350Gt worth the same as a daytona.

The clucking crowd hears about something, and like crows settling on fence suddenly everybody wants it. All these older cars are nice, and most were built in low enough numbers that when the idea of them hits the "crowd" the price goes crazy.

Yet a lot of great prewar stuff ilanguishes, because the generation into it is dying off, and the "crowd" has not latched on yet.

But yes I agree, Dinos are overpriced because there are too many of them to sustain prices above 500K. On the other had they are as pretty ans any great ferrari and easy to drive for novices, so their appeal is stronger. Dont forget the "crowd" loves daytonas with power steering.

Its all good though, great cars get preserved and restored instead of being smoking motive heaps. Serously 20 years ago an Aston DB6 was really just an old heap. And how is a DB6 or DB5 worth more than a DB4 which is lighter more nimble faster and better.

 

By the way DB6 are not worth more than DB4. While the prices of DB6 have gone up more than the DB4, they were also too cheap a few years ago. For insight into DB4's please read my Aston Martin post on my blog. Happy Reading!

DB 4: Aston Martin?s finest series » Le Monde Edmond

By the way why Ghibli's and Maserati 3500 GT remain so cheap I also do not understand!

 

3500 GT -Ghibli Coupe -Mistral
Daytona - Boxers -365 GTC/4
Lambo 350/400GTs are also relatively cheap compared to Lussos/330 GTC
Early Diablos are also cheap at $100k IMO. Purest lines of all of them.

 

I think we all agree: Maserati offers exceptional value in todays market. It is only a matter of time before Maserati catches up to Ferrari. The problem is the Maserati had too many owners and in the 1980's and 1990's they diluted their brand. Today Maserati is stronger but still has much catching up to do.

But if I today where buying my first oldtimer I would look at the 3500 GT very closely. Ghiblis boxy form is also attractive to many (I personally prefer the 1960s to the 1970s). Thus for me a 3500 GT wins the contest against a Ghibli - simply in terms of aesthetics...

 

Interesting blog. There was a BD listed as a series 4 sold in arizona. But it had open headlights? Anyways it went for 400k, which compared to equivalent 250 seies ferraris has to be aserious bargain. Personaly i prefer the ook of the open headlight, more classic.

I thought DB6's were over 500K? I remember 20 years ago when they were poor cousins and not really worth that much, really just patched together cars, but then no one would go near a DBS in those days at all.

Personaly I think a late 70's to mid 80's v8 Vantage is also a great buy at 150k compared to say a daytona or pretty much anything similar from Italy.

The two astons I have driven were a DB6 vantage, which felt like a truck motor and tranny
but steered beautifully, maybe it didnt run right? Also an early 80's US spec volante, which was like most 80's cars just a heavy slug. Would love to try a real vantage, probably a completly different machine.

I also think Aston makes one of the few moderns that is and will be aclassic, the V12 vantage. Everything adaytona or 275 was for the mdoern world, great looks, stonking V12
up front, stick shift.

Back to the topic at hand, the bubble is not bursting, it may be deflating a little back to reality. With ferraris being so pricey I think maseatis will come up, being of similar period provenance and pedigree to ferrari in period and probably of better pedigre than aston.

Lets face it, if the cheap 2 seater 50's and 60's Ferraris are going to be 500k, then something has to be avialable in the 150-400K range and maserati should fill that gap. We just need the clucking specuators to start on the tale that there is another storied Italian brand with a log racing pedigree which made superlative machines in the 50's and 60's.
Anybody know where i can get a good mistral?

 

When Maser starts building cars in the numbers they plan on will it increase or decrease the perceived value of the traditional models? A la Pre-Enzo Ferraris.

 

Good question. On one hand volume drives brand awareness and therefore demand, on the other it can destroy prestige and therefore desire to collect period pieces.

Since a 300sl gullwing is approaching $1million mercedes volume does not seem to have hurt. So I would say as long as masser makes quality new products, it wll grow demand for the classics. People still like rolexes, the new ones are still quality pieces enhancing desire for th old ones.

 

Mercedes was always a volume maker though.
They made taxi cabs.

 

The brand was in trouble long before the 80's.

The problem with Maserati is that it was always "the other Ferrari". While it was falling in and out of different ownership, costs were cut, quality suffered, and innovation was lacking.

While Lamborghini was flying in the public's imagination with the Countach, Maserati was trying to sell the QP3 at over 60 grand and less than 300hp.

Not much from the 70's and none of the 80's is collectible. That's not true with Ferrari where people still like 308's and 328's. That leaves Maser with the 60's --but the cars are often butchered, in bad condition to the point where they aren't worth restoring, or have odd ball things to deal with like Lucas mechanical injection.

They also didn't make many convertibles and that also limits them as none of the classics came with AC.

I think Ghibili spyders are far better looking than Daytona spiders. And, they made just about the same amount. But the 12 cylinder Daytona beats the 8 cylinder Maser anyday -- and prices reflect that.

But oh.. what I wouldn't give for a good Sebring spider or Ghibili spider. Magnificent.

 

Its not like Aston made much of note in the 80 or even more so int he 90's.
My premise is that with 60's ferraris being over 500k more or less, and Astons pretty much over 400k something exotic from that era needs to fill the 150-450 space and maserati is a candidate that ticks all the boxes.

True most masers are still motive heaps, because the price of restoration exceeds the price of the car threefold. Restoring a maser properly has got to be at least as much as a ferrari. But the same was all true of Astons not so long ago, and we have seen a superb Mistral spyder go for over 400k.

So the time will come when the few good older masers still around go for enough that it may make sense to properly restore some of the others. A superb well sorted car always has appeal. Classics are big business now, they are not making new classics, so when you talk exotica from the 60's the only ones left not too pricey are masers, and objectively they are better than astons in performance. I think there time is very soon.

 

For those interested in Maserati and the history, I did an interview with one of the world's leading experts Mr Walter Baumer who is also a member of F-Chat. The interview can be read here:

Maserati: insights from an expert » Le Monde Edmond

In terms of models I have fallen in love with two models: The 5000GT which was Maserati's answer to the Superfast series of Ferrari but only even more exclusive and expensive. It was the pinnacle of personlised cars made for the superrich and for Royalty. The Shah ordered one with a 450 S racing engine. Only 34 were made and bodied by different specialists (Frua, Pininfarina, Touring). A new 5000 GT was apparently the price of 3 Mercedes 300SL Gullwings! Thats why the car was stopped after 34 pieces it was too expensive- even for the super rich at the time.

The other dream car is ofcourse a A6G 2000 Zagato. Only 20 were bodies by Zagato and the car only weighs 800kg was a gentlemen racer (much like the 250 TDF of Ferrari). I think the Maserati A6G 2000 is perhaps one of the most beautiful cars ever made. See pictures below.
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This true only when you consider both brands from the mid '60ies. Before that, the Maserrati brand was strong and so were its cars for over 40 years. Obviously, those things were going to change but your comment that Maserati was "always the other Ferrari" is inaccurate and foregoes a marvellous history full of competition success that deserves recognition.


Onno

 

Very much agree with you!

 

Is there a race car with a better pedigree than the 250F?

 

Or better looking.

 

I am not sure if your aware but in terms of exclusivity and price; in the 1950s and in the beginning of the 1960s Maserati road cars were at a higher level than Ferrari. The 5000 GT was substantially more any similar Ferrari (400 Superfast), Aston Martin or Mercedes and the Royalty chose Maserati (Shah, Aga Khan). Yes Ferrari had some kings to (Belgium) but the most powerful and wealthy at the time chose Maserati. It was super exclusive. And the best of the best in terms of racing drivers were driving for Maserati and not Ferrari (Moss, Fangio).

Don't get me wrong I love Ferrari but there was a time (a window) when Maserati was placed above Ferrari in terms of the road cars. In terms of price, prestige and exclusivity. It would prove to be a very short window though....


Back to the discussion: Even in a bubble there is value to be had. Just look to the Maserati brand for example. Its easy to forget among the lousy Biturbo models and Citroen ownership, Maserati once was the choice of Royalty, actors and billionaires (Cunningham).

 

I am.
I wonder if there is still a market for the understated performance car.
It seems that now even mainstream cars have more capabilities that can be used on the street the only way for super cars to stand out is in their outré appearance.

 

Sure there is. There is always a connoisseur willing to do his homework and wanting to own something rare and something most people do not understand. Its takes a person with character and confidence though....and that itself is rather rare today.

 

I am trying to think who makes such a machine today. I suppose an E63 wagon in grey might work best, but its not exactly bespoke. The just departed bently fying spur in a grey would work in the USA being mistaken for a town car.

Porche 911's come to mind because they are so ubiquitous.

But if youre really talking luxury, performance, something tactile, hard to think of anything, maybe an Evora?

Color to me is a big factor, so many Red ferraris, they can actualy blend in a bit if they are dark grey, so maybe a FF in one of those non hey look at me colors.

Of course if you are really just into performance without badge, then its hard to beat a lotus elise. there are also understaed non spoliered versions of Subaru wrx's

 

Yes there are some customers but is there a market?

Not to be too cynical but it seems that a hyper car has to appeal to those who prize bling over substance to be commercially viable.

 

I misread your post. I thought you were refering to classic cars in terms of being understated. 400 superamerica, 5000 GT, 250 TDF etc etc.
In todays market? I am not sure. I agree in reference to todays market I am not sure the market is big enough. But I don't follow modern cars much anymore. Classic cars interest me more

 

Maserati's downfall is their current curators - the owners of them barely can afford to buy them let alone maintain them and restorations just aren't in the pricing equation. They languish, barely driven and suffer, never to be brought up to the similar standards of Ferrari restorations. There is always the potential for the odd one that has been well cared for but in general look and add heaps of money that is needed due to deferred maintenance and work

 

How can you tell the bubble is about to burst:

Anything look odd here in Hemmings listings?
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Actually, for the Hemmings listings, only 5 cars are available. 3 of the cars are sold, 1 is a Kelmark replica and the purple Dino is listed under 3 separate ads which increases the tally.

 

Facel Vega were very exclusive too in terms of owners,,,and no one is really considering them as top collectible today..brand awareness is something Ferrari knows how to cultivate better than others I guess.