Forza #125

It would appear mike is only interested in dealing in the older cars, which so happen to be higher dollars, and so would likely attract a higher commission. He is also asked repeatedly about 'investment' cars, and he is right in saying what he does, and he has so far been on the money. That said, 3x8 and TRs are also Enzo era cars, and he nails them for their service costs. Bottom line is he is catering to a different market that you or me. He is broking to collectors who likely aren't going to drive their cars. I have no experience, but I have heard that some of the older cars leave a bit to be desired in areas such as brakes. I would much rather DRIVE my depreciating 550 than one of his investment 60s Ferraris. To each their own.

 

I think the price jump of the F40 can almost single-handedly be attributed to Clarkson and the boys at Top Gear. All of the lifelong Ferrari nuts including myself have always held the F40 to the highest regard when it comes to putting together the ultimate Ferrari supercar. Looks, ability on the track, and just outright thrills being the top priority in engineering. I remember F40s being in the 170-190k range about 9 or 10 years ago like it was yesterday. I'm not saying it is the best Ferrari ever, because everybody has their preferences, but it was an amazing car with over 1,000 units produced, which ultimately kept the price low for what it was. After top gear was done heralding it as the best supercar ever, OVER AND OVER on its series, (at least three times I believe), and wallah, Prices have skyrocketed. Supply most likely hasn't changed a bit between now and then. I would have to imagine Very few F40s have been erased so the only other change has clearly been the demand. So if you have owned an F40 for over a decade, I would pull out a pen and paper and thank those Blokes for that 400k price jump. Wowsers

 

Can't say I'm with you on that Brad. While true Clarkson/TG have raved about the F40, they were hardly braking new ground. The F50 they hated, that's gone up too. Why? I think the answer lies in "a rising tide lifts all boats". Cars prices are in a rising market, some more than others. Its not like the F40 rose independant of the rest of the market. If the F40 was 'The Supercar' as they said, why is it still cheaper than an F50, an MC F1, Enzo, etc? Don't worry, I love the F40, and I knew that from 1987...and I'm happy if Jeremy agrees with me!

 

the guys in the 600,000 and over club are dealing with a finite supply, which means as long as they keep the hype going prices willa laways escalate. Akowing anothe rcar into the club expands the pool and slows the rise.

BTW these are the same prophets who said a 288 GTO would never be worth much because it looked like a common 308. They have lost themselvs in BS. A 288 went up because those who love and appreciate cars understood and appreciated it for what it was. The same logic applied to Maclaren F1's which they could not sell in period, yet now are rightfully regarded as the nee plus ultra.

A Boxer is tremendous fun to drive, is stylisticaly uncompromsed by legislation, is a sviceral as a ferrari gets to use and is far more driveable and udseable on the road today than a daytono or F40. It aso has more performance than can be used on the street anyway.

It is no surprise then that serious collectors, ie those who actualy know and use their cars all buy a boxer to add to the ferrari collection, thye also spend an inordinate amount of time finding a good one. Its also probably the only classic type ferrai(short of a2 88) that can hang with the moderns on a enthusuastic street drive.

Its also no surprise that the boxer is the last redoubt for those who are true entusuasts and have more sense than excess money, after the boxer goes up, there is nothing else. Untillt hen Boxers will be ahard sale for the likes of sheehan, checkbook collectors have not cottoned on yet, so they dont walk out the showroom floor. Although I will bet no 365BB hangs around long.

Think about it, a F40 was the greatest performer, and is a blast to drive, but its not really trackable these days and its performance is eclipsed, its also too much for the street. If you want to go fast on the street, enjoy some great mountain roads and have powr, all while hanging with the moderns in an evocative ferrari exoerience there are only two classic style ferraris that can do this, a 288 and a boxer.

 

How much are F50s going for these days? Haven't seen one for sale in awhile. I always liked the coupes. Also remember, they made 3-4x as many F40s than F50s

 

The title of the article, “Vintage up, modern down,” is about as insightful as the content it includes. I have no bone to pick with MS, and like any writer of an article like this, he is simply reporting mostly well known, and perhaps targeted to support a point of view, past market performance. It doesn’t make him bad or good.

What I don’t find in this article, or any that MS writes, is what might be the next trend for future collectibles. As he did when I talked to him many years ago, he will tell what won’t be collectible. One thing everyone would agree on is that some Fcars that are currently at low values and not considered collectible, will someday prove to be both highly valued and collectible. MS describes 3 Ferrari eras: Enzo yrs(“when Enzo was still running the show”), Fiat yrs (big bumper, emissions choked, design by committee offerings), and the Montezemolo years. So if his point is that aside from 288’s and F40’s that no other “Fiat era” Ferrari will prove to be collectible, I can confidently say that he will be proven categorically wrong. Like many were regarding the Dino, just to name one.

I find more interesting conversation about future collectible trends in many FChat threads with contributions by very knowledgeable members than in bland and unimaginative offerings in articles such as these.

Reading MS's articles or even in speaking to him, the feeling that he is a businessman rather than an aficionado pours through.

 

As Chris Bertschi reported in the FChat Vintage section March 8, about the Gooding Amelia Island auction:

Ferrari F50 VIN ZFFTG46A9S0103289
House estimate $900K - $1.1M
Sold: $1,250,000 + com. = $1,375,000 all in.

Ferrari F40 VIN ZFFMN34A9L0087085
House estimate $600K - $800K
Sold: $650,000 + com. = $715,000 all in.
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agreed.

 

About 2x an F40

 

Tick tock. It is only a matter of time - 2, maybe 3 years when the Boxer gets its due. The run ended in 1984 so after 2014 the full series will be > 30 years old. And there ain't that many of them floating around. I wonder which model becomes the start of the non-collectible (in a reasonable time span, not 100 years). I'd say the 360.

 

buzz, what is ironic about MS's claim that the Fiat era cars are "chocked with emissions restrictions and fat with 5mph bumpers" is that Boxers weren't a US car and were designed w/o those pitfalls.

For that reason, a fraction reside in the US, making the ultimate demand that will occur in this market even more dramatic.

But Boxer's will never be collectible...

 

don't get me started on MS....i still feel like he owes me for plane fare for dragging me accross the country to view a clean driver bb...it was certainly NOT my idea of driver condition!!!

he is just a used car salesman and frankly...there are many that have transacted on more of the important cars the he.

don't know how he became the voice of reason?

pcb

 

the bb's are nice cars but the f40 will bring you to your knees.

there's nothing like the f40, when you've driven both then you'll know what I'm talking about.

 

I can't imagine anyone comparing the driving experience of an F40 and a Boxer, both good and bad. Incredibly different cars. Furthermore, it would be very difficult to argue that a Boxer will be worth more than an F40.

Back to the point of will anything besides a 288 or F40 being collectible from the Fiat era, what supportable argument can be made to say they will be the only ones long term?

 

I believe the Boxer and Fiberglass 308 will be added to the collectible list. In general Sheehan's crystal ball seems to be broken or he would have bought and held on to a few of cars he has sold in the past.

 

It's all about supply and demand. Demand for boxers is high among aficianados, and the supply of clean cars is low. Therefore prices will continue to go nowhere but up or stay the same. F40s however, may experience another blip downward once the F40 frenzy dies down a bit because they made over 1,000 and most aren't driven often. The same thing translates over to the Testarossa in a different fashion. Demand for testarossas was at its peak in the early 90s/late eighties, they were difficult to get and the prices were sky high as a result. As soon as the run was over and they were easy to acquire, demand dropped, and the actual value for the car became a reality. 60-80k. 15-20 years from now Testarossas will jump up again because people in my generation with the money (born in early eighties, childhood in the late 80s early 90s) still love the car and the demand will still stay the same. However, the price will slowly escalate as fewer will be available. The car is too iconic to dismiss. Just look at Countaches, they're all north of 100k now because they are more rare. When I was in high school in the late 90s, you could get a countach for 60-70 grand. Only the 25th anniversaries went over 100k. The same thing is happening right now with 308/328 market. They are slowly rising as more and more are disappearing. Look at 328s, 60-70k? Cool cars but I would never pay anywhere near that for a 328, and have no idea why anybody else would, but the supply is low so the price is high.

 

And what's wrong with the 328, Mr. know it all?

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with the 328. I grew up loving the 308s and 328s. I just could never justify paying 70k for a 308 when I could have a TR, 355, 360, 348 for the same price. I wasn't slamming in the car, I just don't get the price.

 

i get it...it is a pretty and perfectly balanced machine.

 

ms has finally given the fiberglass 308 a bump in price range 60-85k

what happened to 25-35k?

as the car nuts born in the 60's wake up, start to make money or inherit money these cars will be in demand.

the guys that grew up around model t's are dead and I don't want one not even for free.

a rule of thumb when looking for a car, is it worthy of a parking spot ( not a parking spot outside with a tarp, but a heated dry spot)

 

was that boxer in CAN that you were disappointed in? "mine" was....and MS STILL has not returned my deposit. Utterly without shame, morals or integrity, yes, HOW DID he become "voice of reason"....shyster thru and thru. Jack

 

Rock- I would like to offer you, for your car, the high end value MS puts on the fiberglass 308 which is 85k, do you accept ?......I figured not.