Webber leaving?

Exactly!! Why is that so hard to understand for some? Was it the right decision from the team? Maybe...maybe not. Maybe they knew that if both cars kept racing to the end, neither would finish. Obviously, like the rest of us, I have no idea. Maybe if they couldn't race to the end, they should still have let Vettel pass. No idea.

But right or wrong....that was the team decision, and Vettel broke that agreement....and THAT's what Webber and many others were pissed about. Not being beaten, but being screwed.

All things being equal, apart from the occasional exception, I think Vettel will usual beat Webber. He just has an amazing gift IMO.

 

I understand - the only point I am making is that it's not as if Webber had won the race and Vettel did something evil to "steal" Webbers victory. The race finishes at the start/finish line, and Vettel (for better or worse, depending on one's view of the man) decided to ignore the team instruction and take what he wanted.

The transgression was ignoring the agreed team instructions, not in taking a win from Webber. It was a victory which he (Vettel) earned, by virtue of being faster and beating Webber - but it arose through ignoring team instruction which makes him disobedient, and by ignoring Webber's best interests, which makes him a cold hearted bastard. That is what people are upset about - they shouldn't be upset that he "took" Webber's win - he didn't.

 

geez...you're hard to understand. I agree with this, but then other things you type makes this look like a complete back flip.

OTOH, however, like it or not, if the team decision was to race until the last pit stop, you can say all you like that the race wasn't finished, but actually it was. AND....racing to the last pit stop then holding position is nothing new.

 

Technically you are right. If you leave a lot of cash on the table and walk away for a second and I grab it I didn't steal it because it technically wasn't in your pocket.

Everyone knows Vettel didn't break a rule. He broke a principal.

 

See, I think I've been saying the same thing all along, but this time I called Vettel a bastard and disobedient, so maybe you find it more agreeable in this form?

I watched an interview with Barrichello a week or two ago (old one) where he was asked about being told to move over for MS... and he said he had decided not to move over... but after numerous team orders and at the last moment, he acquiesced. A lot of people were pissed about that move, and I am sure he'd have enjoyed a lot of support if he had made the pass. I'm pretty sure Nico would have enjoyed a lot of support if he had done the same, especially if we hadn't been privy to the very direct and clear instruction from Brawn to hold position (with an explanation). But the same action from Vettel causes a lot of anger.

I note that people love an underdog, and I think that is a large part of why people are so angry. But Webbo is a big boy and got where he is on merit, but to his misfortune, Vettel got where he is on his own merit too, and the latter's supersedes the former's.

But I think we agree - the extent of the transgression as ignoring team orders, but there was no component of taking what was rightfully Webber's - not in my view anyway, especially after Webber's words and actions last year. People talk about comeuppance - but to me, this was the comeuppance.

 

True, but those rules have been broken by all of the top drivers (Hamilton taking Alonso's preferential qualifying spot, Alonso screwing Hamilton's qualifying session, Schumi parking @ Rascasse, everything Senna did (LOL), etc. I don't think the money analogy fits, as stealing money is a greater crime. It would be more like going out for dinner with your wife... you get chicken and she calls dibs on the big piece. But when she goes to the bathroom, you eat the big piece. Yep, you went back on your word, but you're the alpha dog

 

There are no " nice guys" at this level.
While team orders make sense behind the pit wall they are anathema to competitors.
I understand why Seb did what he did and if his result gets him another WDC that's what will be remembered.
No one at RB covered themselves in glory this weekend.

 

Yes.

 

LOL!

Yes, the team said 'whoever is leading after the last pitstop is allowed to win'. But the race isn't over then. The race is over when the chequered falls, especially early on in the season. 2 out of the last 3 WDC's where won with very few points in between, so there's no point in giving Webber sympathy points now so early in the season. If this was one of the last few races in the season and Vettel had the WDC in his pocket, I'd have been pissed too.

Webber didn't race Vettel for it? What did we all see on TV then? A squeeze into the wall (where some called for Schumachers head in 2010 after he did the same to Barrichello, despite them not touching either), dicing for track position throughout sector 1...wheel to wheel? Webber was told to turn down his engine after the pass was made (according to reports on here, I was too hungover to observe that) so they both had equal power.

I think Vettel was right, it's early in the season and points are important. The only thing I dislike about it is how Vettel shuffled his foot and ''apologized'' and saying it was an accident. He's top dog in the team, he'd beaten Mark into submission and should've said right there and then ''I'm racing for the championship, and history has shown us it got very close in recent years''. That excuse he made was more stuff you see a 9 year old make after he punched a weak kid in the eye to steal his lunch money, despite the weak kid being 12 years old.

 

Whilst i understand with most that has been said and seeing both sides of the argument, there is a small issue of the "fans".

I have never been one for following drivers although i did endear myself with the likes of Gilles, Niki and Michael. Vettel is a consumate racing driver with undoubted talent in the best car. How do you measure that. The only example i see of a racing driver was Gilles at Spain when he clearly had the worst car on the grid but was talented enough to resist the assualt of many much quicker cars /drivers behind him. However whilst F1 plays more importance on the driver you will get this type of interferring by teams. Lets face it WDC has more kudos than WCC.

Many fans feel cheated when they see their "hero" get team orders to move over or indeed dont overtake. Its rigging the result and no team principal has the right to manipulate it. Its not only the team, the FIA have concluded in this with DRS.

the circus has its self to blame for this comedy and shows complete contempt for fan / sponsor to call them racing teams / drivers. Its a parade and when money rules, the guy with the biggest "$%^*" will dictate the show.

After 50 years of following F1, i switched the TV off after lap 20.

 

Did you ignore F1 after Collins gave his car to Fangio to win the WDC because he thought he'd have plenty of time to get one, only to die not long after that magnanimous gesture of sportsmanship ?

Or when Didier overtook Gilles following a similar agreement ?

Or turn off the TV when DC slowed to allow MH to win the race in Australia following their agreement ?

Sometimes it's like watching WWE, you know it's fake and rigged but you are hoping something goes wrong

 

What?? WWE is real!

 

I'm glad some on here know some historic to put things into perspective.

I was furious when Rubens had to concede his victory to MS but later I realized that was the only right thing to do.

Maybe one day some people on here will realize too that Vettel did the right thing and Horner-Ochse the wrong thing. Although I don't have much hope for that to happen. Too many on here with the memory of a gnat. Or no memory at all.

 

Sugar coat it all you like...Vettel did the wrong thing because before the race he agreed to something and broke his word.

THE END.

Now if you were to say it was a ridiculous agreement, and Vettel and Co shouldn't have agreed to it in the first place, then I'd agree. <---that's a lot of agreeing!

 

Agreed.
Any "excuses" he gave afterwards about being confused or having misunderstood were just BS. He broke the agreement deliberately and a driver should follow team orders.

Agreed.
I do say that and as mentioned before for the life of me I don't understand why Horner-Ochse made such a stupid arrangement in the first place and why Vettel would have agreed to it.

Agreed.
It must be an Easter thing.

 

Which Vettel agreed to abide by. Then he decided not to bother adhering to the agreement he made, showing that he has no honor.

Whilst you may say that there is no room for honor in F1 any more, the lack of honor makes him untrustworthy - which is exactly how Webber feels about him now.

There's the old saying: "A man is only as good as his word!" - ask yourself this: Would you be happy to do business with a man who doesn't keep his word?

I suspect not! - So why should Webber?

So if you ran your own business, you would consider it to be okay for an employee to disregard a direct order not to do something, as long as it was for their own gain? - Because that's what basically happened here!

The company (Red Bull), told their employee (Vettel), not to do something and he completely ignored it for his own gain!

Let's put it another way, if your son or daughter asked to borrow your car because they wanted to go and meet their friends and you said no, but they took the car anyway -would you consider that to be okay? Or would you consider them to have broken your trust and to have disrespected you?


The problem that Vettel has now is that there may come a time that he needs some assistance from Webber and it will not happen!

Take this hypothetical situation:

It's the last race of the season and going into the race Alonso leads Vettel by 6 points.
Coming into the final few laps of the race, Vettel leads the race by some distance with Webber 2nd and Alonso stuck behind Webber in 3rd and looking like there's no way past.

Now if you're Webber, do you:

A) Keep Alonso behind you and help Vettel win his 4th WDC?

OR

B) Let Alonso have an easy pass to get the 7 points he requires to take the Championship?


I know which one I'd do! - and it would send a clear message to Sebastian Vettel!

(And My monies on Webber being just the sort of character to do it too! )

Here's something for Vettel to ponder:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IST6qRfVqwY]James Brown -The Payback - YouTube[/ame]


"The brother get ready!! Thats a fact!!
Get ready you Mother, for the big payback (The big Payback!!)
Let me hit 'em hit'em!! Hey Hey!! WOOOOOOOOOOOO! "

 

Fact or just more opinion...who knows.

The human dynamics at work behind Malaysian Grand Prix dramasJames Allen on F1 ? The official James Allen website on F1

 

Opinion, seems fair enough to me.

 

&#9658; 0:20&#9658; 0:20
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME]Casablanca gambling? I'm shocked! - YouTube[/ame]
Mar 18, 2010 - Uploaded by lesatseaside
Classic Casablanca scene Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds? Captain Renault ...

Shocked!

 

The problem I see with it is that Mark had built up a nice 3-4 second cushion over Vettel throughout the race. Vettel had nothing for Mark's pace when they were both going after it.

I believe Webber backed off the revs, Vettel didn't and then he closed right up to Webber's exhaust before he realized what was going on. Suddenly, the fight was on, which Seb won (not suprising), but had Webber been given the opportunity to maintain the gap I don't believe Vettel would have ever had the opportunity to make the pass in the first place.

 

Well, if I may...

Been following the discussion without saying anything because of most points being already made, and also because being tired of the tires comedia (come on, guys, four stops for tires? That makes about forty miles with a set, it's ridiculous) I didn't watch the race to the end and switched off after lap number 30.

Like some people here, I don't see anything wrong in what Vettel has done, only in the way he has coped with it afterwards.

But for people who still remember some bits of racing history, I am surprised that nobody has spoken about the Rio incident in 1981, and that famous "Jones - Reut" signal given to Carlos Reutemann, who choose not to obey, even if its contract, that he has been free to sign or not, said that he has to give the lead to Alan Jones.

Please refer to Nigel Roebuck's book "25 Grand Prix Greats"; its interesting: basically he says that he has always considered Carlos Reutemann as a man of honor, true to his words, and that Reutemann has said something on the lines: "it's true that I have agreed to this by contract, but once in the car that day, when thinking about it, I said to myself that, as a Grand Prix driver who starts every race believing that I can win it, were I to handle a race victory that I have earned to somebody else, I better stop the car right now and fly back home to the farm in Argentina, because, as a racing driver, after doing such a thing I would be finished".

Rgds

 

Great write up. Thanks for sharing

 

Hat off to you Sire.

I totally forgot that incident.

 

i can't imagine webber will leave. he has the best car despite being the team's number 2 driver why walk away mid season and give away a nice paycheck. after this season i'm sure he will leave, especially if vettel wins another wdc

 

Oh, c'mon! Disturbing a wonderful hijack! Don't you have any manners!

My OP was actually not about him leaving mid season but not taking/getting another contract with RB anymore. At which point he'd become another Barrichello.