Webber leaving?

But based on his own admission, as with Vettel, he failed to honor his own agreement!

Definition of honor (From: honour - definition of honour by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.)

honour US, honor [ˈɒnə]
n
1. personal integrity; allegiance to moral principles



Definition of integrity: (From: integrity - definition of integrity by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.) :

in·teg·ri·ty (n-tgr-t)
n.
1. Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.

By failing to adhere to the agreement that he made, As with Vettel, I personally do see him as a man of honor!



Let's look at another word (From: Welsh - definition of Welsh by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.) :

welsh (wlsh, wlch) also welch (wlch)
intr.v. welshed also welched, welsh·ing also welch·ing, welsh·es also welch·es Informal
1. To swindle a person by not paying a debt or wager.
2. To fail to fulfill an obligation.

In the cases of both Reutemann and Vettel, No.2 seems to fit perfectly: "To fail to fulfill an obligation."


If you want to look back at F1 history for a man of true honor - I give you Gilles Villeneuve in 1979 (From: Gilles Villeneuve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) :

Villeneuve could have won the World Championship by beating Scheckter at the Italian Grand Prix, but chose to finish behind him, ending his own championship challenge. The pair finished first and second in the championship, with Scheckter beating Villeneuve by just four points.

Villeneuve easily had the beating of Scheckter that day, but his own personal honor would not allow him to break the agreement he'd made!

This personal honor is why he could not accept what Pironi did at Imola in 1982.



As I see it: If you fail to stand by your word then you have no honor!

 

While I agree, the concept of honor in F1 left the barn long ago.

 

And one could even argue that is a good thing:

While there was plenty of honor in the fifties, the drivers were (quite literally) gentlemen racers. With sponsorship in the sixties came big money. That made everything more professional and the honor system went out the door.

 

"If you look at it its a barn, if you smell it its a stable"
Groucho Marx

 

Phil,

I do of course agree with what you wrote (that I have shortened a bit just for the quoting purpose), and do believe in those values in the sport.We could also have mentionned Peterson and Andretti in Zandvoort in '78.

I neverthless find Nigel Roebuck's assesment interesting; I quote from his book:

"I never saw Carlos Reutemann as duplicitous, as Pironi was to be at Imola, but there again I liked the man and always believed him to be honourable. He did not, after all, steal a race from a trusting team mate on the last lap (...) Frank Williams fined him for his action (...) What, I asked him, if the same situation were to occur again? "hmmm...very difficult. I don't think it will, but if it did, I believe I would take the same decision that I did in Brazil".

Rgds

 

I may be being a bit harsh about Carlos Reutemann, but I base My own concept of integrity on a similar level as Gilles Villeneuve did - if you say you'll do something then you do it and if you say you won't do something, then you don't do it! (Keeps life simple for Me! )

 

That's an interesting angle, but it certainly raises a lot of questions! Did Webber realize Vettel was closing, despite not needing to? Did Vettel turn down his engine? (if not, and if it was not due to fuel but rather due to preserving the engine, why wasn't the team on him to turn it down?). And if Mark had known that Vettel intended to catch and pass him, I'm not sure he would have been able to maintain the lead - he certainly had some advanced notice that Vettel intended to pass, and remained in front for a while after Vettel's first move, but was unable to pull away.

 

True, but I think that once Mark noticed Vettel intended to pass, he was in the clutches of DRS. It was going to be difficult to pull away from that point on.

 

Look back to Turkey 2012 and this interview afterwards.

F1 Interview with Mark Webber after the 2010 Turkish Grand Prix - YouTube

"If you look back, obviously its something you would of wanted to handle a little bit differently". "Its something I hope we handle a little bit better in the future".

Obviouslly, Webber learned that Seb is stupid enough to wreck when they are 1-2. Webber knows that if Seb ignored what he was told on radio - that he is still stupid enough to wreck them both this season. So he handled it differently this time, continued to conserve, and didn't try to get back the spot. Instead of getting wrecked and losing spots, he took 2nd, and both red bulls finish.

Btw, sometimes race engineers know that if a Driver is already ignoring order A and B, telling them a second time will do nothing.

 

Except that Turkey went down differently: Seb was told that Webber would make room for him passing. But Webber didn't because his race engineer didn't pass the order to him. Hence the crash.

Mismanagement at the pitwall, not the drivers' fault.

 

Mike - don't want to get into it again like we did last night - but I think that's the big issue (let's forget the right or wrong conversation), the Multi-21 command must mean more than 'hold your position'. Seems like a complex phrase, something like 'turn down the revs, etc, and hold your position'. Seems like Vettel ignored everything, which is what really pissed the team off. We also only heard limited conversations; I assume.
And they seem seriously pissed. Much more so than just passing your teammate against instructions. (Cancelling the team victory photo afterwards was surprising) For everything Vettel has done with them, I've never seen a team that upset with their driver.
Kevin

 

Yes, This! ^^

I cannot believe in 10 pages this had not yet been brought up. I kept reading hoping to see it. Serves me right for not visiting the F1 section for a few days.

Vettel couldn't catch him until AFTER the pitstop. They were equal - maybe Webber slightly better. Once told to conserve Mark did - Seb didn't and closed the gap quickly and - unfortunately for Mark - talent took over. Mark had "won" the race according to the team and agreed upon team orders.

Vettel's actions did knock him down a notch or two in MANY people's eyes. Mine included.

 

Nice post and explains clearly Webbers anger to begin with.

Seb was hauled to the factory to apologize to the team at large. That Im sure was not his idea.

 

This is what I believe as well. Combine this with the FACT that Mark was on hard compounds and Vettel on soft and there you have it.

 

Let's not try to get into it in general Kevin

As for "multi 21"... it would be very interesting to know what the specifics of that were. Also, since Lewis was so far behind, the team must have known something was up when Vettel was running at a pace that had him reeling in Webber - so what, if anything, did they say to him at that time? I heard the transmissions after the passing started, but we don't know what all the nuances of "multi 21" are.

But I have a question for you and everyone else... as honestly and unbiasedly as possible... Would you feel the same if Nico passed Lewis? Or if Rubens hadn't moved over for Schumi?

You're right that Webber got stiffed on this deal, and Vettel was cold and calculating and entirely selfish. But I don't think Webber has any "right" to a race win.

And on another note, don't you think this is good for F1? For me, the best outcome would have been for Vettel in his podium speech (where he gets the final word after Webber) to tell Webber to drive faster if he doesn't like losing, and for Webber to punch him. That sort of drama and excitement is missing from F1, which is increasingly tire and fuel management. Everyone says they are upset at drama, but aren't we all going to be watching Webber and Vettel like hawks throughout this season to see who does what?

 

I'm not sure what broadcast you were watching, but if you're in the USA and it was the USA/NBC feed, the commentators were saying that the hard tires were actually doing better than the softs, if I remember right.

 

Yes and I suppose the other point is, had Webber won, the pair would have had the same point total.

End of the day it has just caused the relationship between the two, to worsen (if it wasn't already), it is the trust aspect, how is Webber to trust Vettel now, and how is Vettel going to trust Webber (he may become a loose cannon on his last year!), the team has a self inflicted problem on it's hands, besides fending off the others.

It will probably amount to zip Vettel disobeying and apologizing words are cheap, the damage has been done.

However it makes no odds all the hand shaking and apparent moving on Vettel will have the sole backing of the team to push for another WDC, that much is clear, at least to me.

 

Maybe so on the heavy fuel at the early stages and not necessarily at the ending lighter stages...? I watch the BBC and was referring to the James Allen right up.

Analysis: Why did Vettel ignore team orders and pass Webber?James Allen on F1 ? The official James Allen website on F1

Also note the internal advantage Vettel winning puts him in, in the team. Perhaps the team is not as surprised as they are acting...?

 

Haha too right

 

Yes points the same. The internal politics will require closer monitoring(Herr Marko) and in the end Vettel will be in front unless Mark improves some more. Early times yet. China will be interesting and I hope, DRY

 

Vettel will be out front period.
The team has no interest in seeing Webber beat him. Seb is the future, a highly marketable driver favored by the only voice at RB that matters.

 

I am praying for this situation, I can just imagine Webber pulling into the pits after doing it , getting out of the car, walk over to Vettel and flip him the bird while saying "paybacks a b*tch!"


That way I get a ferrari WDC and Vettel gets his comeuppance

 

So basically Reutemann had no morals either

 

There in lies the problem of trusting a devious, immoral team "mate"

You let Vettel cruise up to you knowing the team orders and then he takes advantage of DRS, what a **** Vettel has shown himself to be.

Can't wait for next years Aussie GP

 

The way I'd want it to happen is Webber stays ahead of Alonso going into the last lap and then as he approaches the finish line he pulls over and stops before the line, letting Alonso pass him.

He doesn't cross the line at all and simply gets out of the car, winks at Christian horner and walks away from Red Bull.

It's a bit "Hollywood", but I'd love to see it happen!