Interesting 1995 F355 issue | FerrariChat

Interesting 1995 F355 issue

Discussion in '348/355' started by Jordanmd88, Mar 18, 2013.

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  1. Jordanmd88

    Jordanmd88 Rookie

    Apr 28, 2009
    11
    #1 Jordanmd88, Mar 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I Have had my 95' F355 for almost two years now. Issue Free. Car had extremely well documented previous ownership, and meticulous preventative maintenance.

    The car has been perfect! No oil consumption, no rough running ect. I replaced the crank sensors because they were dry rotting and cracking. And the convertible top hydraulics needed the fluid replaced, these were the only issues *so lucky*

    This past week I took it to get the emissions tested, Car passed with flying colors. I went home and cleaned it. Put it in the Garage.

    On monday morning I was driving to work, and the car developed a miss fire. No check engine light.

    I noticed some smoke. I pulled over, shut the car off and called a wrecker. After arriving at work, I located the misfiring cylinder, it was a fouled plug. New plugs in, fired right up and car drove as normal.

    While test driving I noticed oil smoke out the exhaust... My first thought was "well there when the valve guide" Engine was at operating temp and when you give it some gas it smokes. No smoke on start up, hot or cold only when you rev it.

    I did a compression test with the engine up to temp. All cylinders were at 205psi, one was at 190. It was the cylinder with the fouled plug :(

    My next step was to do a leak down. All cylinders were 2-8% leak down all within spec.

    The compression and leak down numbers don't look like the guides are going. I have a hard time believing one or two guides in one cylinder are going.

    I went on the check all crank case breather lines, they were clear. And the oil was not over full at all. It was right where I left it 3 months ago when I changed the oil. (car only has about 3-5 miles and 15 min of run time on it while smoking. It's not a light oil smoke, it is smoking badly. If it helps its' like a blown turbo oil seal blowing oil on the turbine wheel and right out the exhaust.


    Does anyone have any input?
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  2. Jordanmd88

    Jordanmd88 Rookie

    Apr 28, 2009
    11
    Any opinions? I am going to drop the motor out Saturday and start the tear down.
     
  3. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 18, 2008
    6,016
    Indio Ca/ Alberta
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    Grant
    I have read that compression test should be done cold but I am not sure why? Maybe someone else can confirm
     
  4. apex97

    apex97 Formula Junior
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    Nov 25, 2006
    593
    Stockbridge, GA
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    Edward Zabinski
    Boy, I'd do a little more thinking and testing before I pulled the engine apart with good compression and leakdown number like yours.

    Could it be a bad EGR or other emission system gone wonky? The fouled plug/misfire might be a result of something more simple!

    Call some of the pros on Fchat and see what other things to check before dropping the motor.
     
  5. GerryD

    GerryD Formula 3

    May 5, 2010
    2,444
    North of TO
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    Guido
    Could be a broken oil ring in that cylinder. Hard to say. Its sounds like you know what your doing. If your taking out the engine yourself then go for it. If your paying someone to do it, then look into it and ask around a bit more before paying out bucks you may not have to.
     
  6. GerryD

    GerryD Formula 3

    May 5, 2010
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    If hes getting that much smoke....I doubt it would be the egr.
     
  7. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 18, 2008
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    Not much experience with a broken oil ring but would it smoke more when cold or warm
     
  8. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    Mitchell Le
    I would remove the header and the intake manifold and look into the cylinder that is fouling to see if the valve stem seals are torn and leaking badly. You can see it from the ports.
     
  9. GerryD

    GerryD Formula 3

    May 5, 2010
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    Hard to say. Should be less when warm but I cant say for sure. The valve guides tighten up when warm. If I go by the shop tomorrow I will ask Massimo what he thinks.
     
  10. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    Jun 11, 2004
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    John Kreskovsky
    Does it smoke on throttle (acceleration), off throttle (engine braking), or all the time?
     
  11. apex97

    apex97 Formula Junior
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    Nov 25, 2006
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    Edward Zabinski
    It sounds like you are a very sharp owner, but I keep thinking about the fact that you just did a oil change and only drove 15 miles before it sat for awhile and then started smoking.

    Is it possible that there is anything related to that job that might have caused this smoking? Triple check the oil level? Trash in the scavenge line, blocked screen, etc?

    As my flight instructor used to say, "If you pick your nose and the engine quits, put the booger back in first":)
     
  12. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
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    + 1 - rule out the simple stuff first
     
  13. montinis

    montinis Rookie

    Feb 22, 2010
    16
    San Diego, CA
    Maybe one of the cats is desintegrating causing the smoke, and tripping the O2/Thermocouple sensors causing a slow down type condition...
     
  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    #14 Rifledriver, Mar 21, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
    Can't diagnose a motor sitting on the garage floor.

    Bad cat does not generate smoke

    Ferrari has not had EGR since 1983.

    Guess work of this nature will not lead to a diagnosis.




    Ferrari installed plugs in every tube of the exhaust manifolds to allow exhaust sampling for diagnostic purposes. Use them. Once it has been narrowed down to an offending cylinder or cylinders, you know where to focus your energy.


    You have a number of diagnostic tools at your disposal that have yet to be used and none of them are any good with the motor out.
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I am just curious. Please explain how that can happen.

    And what is "a slow down type condition"?
     
  16. apex97

    apex97 Formula Junior
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    Nov 25, 2006
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    Edward Zabinski
    You're right of course, I actually meant that there may be issues other than mechanical failure here and jumping right in to yank the motor and tear into it did not seem like the right plan until other things were ruled out. Too many 308's in my past I guess:)
     
  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    You're correct. It is much easier to do diagnostics when it is still running.

    Even after it is diagnosed, no reason to think at this point a repair will require removal.
     
  18. ClydeM

    ClydeM F1 World Champ
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    I'm for eliminating the easy stuff too.
    You did an oil change.
    Did you switch from Dino to Synthetic, or from a thicker weight to thinner?
    Both of those have caused me headaches in the past on a 308.
     
  19. Jordanmd88

    Jordanmd88 Rookie

    Apr 28, 2009
    11
    It smokes on acceleration, and at idle it seems to finish burning off what ever oil was deposited in the exhaust system, then it will clear up for a bit and then it will puff smoke briefly.

    I should also add, It doesn't matter if it's ice cold or at operating temp, the symptoms are the same.



    I changed the oil, a few months back. It has had maybe 500 miles on it since the oil change, With no consumption (thats what i was getting at) Sorry for any confusion.

    I haven't checked the scavenge line yet, or any of the screens. The motor isn't pushing excess oil through the crankcase breathers into the intake manifold. It's dry.

    I popped off the intake manifolds looked down past the throttles at the back of the intake valves. All of the valves look great, no discoloration, no oil pools, nothing unusual.

    Tomorrow I'm going to pull the exhaust manifold and see if my "problem cylinder" has burnt "coked" oil in the exhaust port.

    I have always used Mobil 1 It is what the car has had since it's first oil change in 95'


    Thanks for all of the input I just have a hunch it's a guide thats going. I hope I'm wrong. We will all find out soon!
     
  20. Jordanmd88

    Jordanmd88 Rookie

    Apr 28, 2009
    11
    UPDATE:

    The problem cylinder's exhaust port was covered in oil soot, Yet the intake port on that cylinder is clean. I checked all of the dry sump lines, ect. The car is maintaining proper oil pressure, on startup and when it is running.

    I'm afraid it is the guides.. Even with great compression and leak down. They problem cylinder is about 15-20 psi lower than all other cylinders on the compression test. So I'm leaning towards the valve seat is sealing "ok" but when the motor is loaded the guide leaks oil into the combustion chamber.

    The motor will be coming out in the next week or two pending how busy I am.

    Wish me Luck, I'll document everything as I go along. I will shoot some video this week of the car running and smoking. So there will be full documentation on the problem all the way to the solution.
     
  21. HK Forza

    HK Forza Karting

    Jun 15, 2012
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    Kevin Yeung
    Good luck Jordan. Keep us posted.
     
  22. GerryD

    GerryD Formula 3

    May 5, 2010
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    #22 GerryD, Mar 25, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2013
    It will be interesting to see what you find when the engine is out. When I had my engine out for service we did a leak down and 5 of the cylinders were worse than yours and yet the car never ever smoked and it ran strong. We did the valve guides and the car has more power but we did other things as well. I just don't see that much oil getting past just one valve guide.
     
  23. Jordanmd88

    Jordanmd88 Rookie

    Apr 28, 2009
    11
    I hear ya, I have a hard time believing that oil smoke is coming from one cylinder, but it is, intake side is clean exhaust side is covered. The rings in that cylinder have to be in great shape with the compression numbers and I have never seen oil rings fail before the compression ring or the scraper. But there is always a first time for everything.


    For now I'm being lazy and probably wont pull the motor for another month. Next week is Grand Am @ Barber then we have a two week "break" (repair and rebuild the broken cars) and it's the Road Atlanta Grand Am Race.
     
  24. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
    29,017
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    Jordan,

    I would be interested in the results of a hi pressure FAA leakdown test vs a low pressure leakdown test. There are some who swear by the low pressure test being more able to adequately diagnose especially the 355 due to the design of the guide and valve and how both influence the seat. It would be very enlightening if you actually find much more leakage with a low pressure test which would then start to lead you away from simple fixes. Not knowing the real science behind hi vs. low pressure testing now I just do both of them and tally both results. FWIW, the 355 valve guide seal is better than the guide. That's one reason why several have reported no smoking yet bad guides on their cars. Make sure you fully diagnose your car. The worst thing that could happen is you pull the motor apart then freshen it beautifully only to fine it is still blowing smoke when you run it.
     
  25. ClydeM

    ClydeM F1 World Champ
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    What are the pressures associated with each?
     

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