Ferrari should offer N button on F1 steering wheels

Thanks Phil, I do remember those 2 well-worn axioms. I guess I must be at least as old as you are.

I believe Ferrari calls their traction control "F1-TRAC", some sort extra-fast, fancy computer programmed system that came out of developments with the 599 GTB and F430 Scuderia.

As for whether to "in a spin both feet in" when your car has F1-TRAC, I think the axiom still holds true. If your car is already spinning, then the F1-TRAC has been overwhelmed. Look at it this way, traction control systems in F1 cars are way faster and more sophisticated because they have to work at much higher vehicle speeds and engine torques and we still have F1 spins all the time.

If a car spins out of control, it means the car is no longer performing as designed and it's now up to the driver to do something to rescue the situation. Traction control is only the latest gadget, in the past we had limited slip differentials. I definitely applied both feet when my old (LSD-equipped) BMW, lost it in a corner. Always worked like a charm.

 

I think the best way to resolve our opposing arguments is to look at what's happening to the slip angles. Here is the sequence:

- I steer into the corner, initiate the turn, slight plowing on front, small lateral force on driven tires
(F = R neutral steer becomes F > R mild understeer) typical of RWD

- car runs over a slippery patch, car goes sideways, pivoting on front tires, forward speed drops, front tires increase slip angle, rear tires slip angle massively increase due to sideways motion coupled with drop in forward speed
(F <<< R massive oversteer)

- I steer into slide and declutch, front tires now run straight, rear tires now follow front tires, front slip angle drops, rear slip angle drops massively but still greater than front
(F<R mild oversteer)

- traction regained as tires follow slide, reapply throttle and steer back into corner
(F<R mild oversteer continues as F<R mild oversteer)​

The other thing to keep in mind is that my situation is a simple turn on a city street, not a power slide or a drift, both of which are initiated at high speeds and executed with predictable traction.

 

...only if you are smoking something illegal.

 

If you're spinning and it can't be saved, you're best to declutch and lock the brakes. Declutching improves the braking action because if the drivetrain is still connected to the wheels, the brakes must also stop the drivetrain because it is connected. When you brake against the drivetrain, you brake against compression, essentially braking against engine braking.

This greatly lowers the efficiency of the braking. This is why other drivers on this forum also say they like to declutch before braking (in a straight line). When you declutch, it's only the spinning wheels and vehicle momentum you are stopping, not drivetrain drag as well. If you drive a manual, you would notice this right away.

Locking all 4 tires should keep the slide going straight, assuming that direction is clear. Otherwise, you won't slow down and you don't know where you'll end up.

Finally, it also depends on where you are driving because on a busy street, if you spin and stall in front of on-coming traffic and can't get out of the way, it could be a double-wammy and very bad news.

 

Well, according to his profile Lusso does not own a car, nor does he want to own one so I'm not sure how he manages to get around in Nevada. What can I say? At least I own a RWD car and I heed the official advice and regulations regarding how to drive on public roads?

Seriously, all kiddings aside I have to disagree. You may live in Nevada but according to StateGuidesUSA.com - Nevada your average monthly temperature never drops below 37°F. How the heck could you have "... experienced about every slippery road driving condition you can imagine, in various types of vehicles." if you haven't driven in snow or ice?

You seem enthralled by the electronic aids but you don't even seem to know how they work or know when you have to step in. I'm talking about a snap oversteer that happens in a flash - the electronic aids are toast. They don't work at that level. Have you driven in a nice manual transmission RWD car before? Because if you have, you would lament and miss that experience. Driving an F1 car is interesting but not nearly as engaging or as much fun as a manual transmission car.

And BTW, you should post your brother's comments. If they were technical, there shouldn't be any "COC violation" as regards FChat. OTOH, if the comments are purely personal then why would it convince me to take driving lessons? You sound like you're pulling my leg.

Sorry, this sort of stuff doesn't work on me. So what *do* you drive anyway?

 

Hey, don't judge Canadian driving instruction manuals by what you provide in Botswana. I'm sure your officials do their best but Canada is not Botswana.

How's the weather today?

 

Well, I believe New England isn't a state but NE is actually Nebraska, so I was wrong anyway.

As for trolling, if someone starts a topic and maintains a message thread to support an idea, answering other people in kind and that person is deemed a troll then everyone may as well pack up and say "goodbye" as you suggest.

Instead, I would say trolling is when someone jumps in and makes a statement on a forum against someone or against someone's idea and leaves without justifying it with at least some sort of sound and polite reasoning, if not irrefutable proof.

In any case, I suspect New England's driver's manuals also tells drivers to switch gears to neutral or declutch as part their emergency driving response. And I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but I will repeat it again. I am discussing this maneuver when driving on public roads, within the posted speed limits. It's purely a safety maneuver.

 

I appreciate your reminder to keep the discussion objective and not personal. Thanks.

I only started this thread to promote a basic feature found on Ferrari and apparently also on all other F1 racing steering wheels which would permit me to use a sound driving practice that Canadian authorities highly emphasize to all its drivers. The same practice appears to be promoted by experienced manual transmission RWD drivers in your own country. At the moment, F1 paddles in Ferrari street cars facilitate going to neutral only when steering straight but that's not how true F1 steering wheels work. Disengaging the drivetrain is an extremely useful tool to have for any driver who understands how to use it.

I have taken great pains to explain things in a technical manner, beyond what anyone else here has attempted. Otherwise, forums tend to become "he said - she said" exchanges and no one really learns anything tangible and that's when there aren't any trolls.

I have driven for over 30 years and almost all of that in sporty manual transmission RWD cars. Declutching as part of responding to a slide works really well so long as you get the steering correct and can react fast enough. If the slide occurs very fast, no one and no electronic gadget will save you and that's why F1 race cars do spin out.

You don't need to post an answer if you prefer not to and I won't assume you agree with me.

Over and out.

 

Bob, thanks for taking time to explain your point.

What you describe is a power slide or a drifting technique. I have actually done it before in my youth. You steer by retarding rear lateral movement using throttle-induced tire deformation on the outside rear tire when you go around. So you don't want to declutch in that situation because it simply "unsettles the car completely" and the car will then really oversteer - it would be like inducing throttle lift-off oversteer. My BMW 540i Sport had wide staggered wheels and negative rear camber that aided cornering, based on the same slip angle principles. A buddy of mine used to make fun of BMWs because of the look. Ironically, his thing at the time were long, sleek beautiful GTs, not Bahnstormers.

Drifting is very hard on your rear tires and also not the fastest way to get around a corner. I do not see it practised on the F1 circuit. Of course, a driver can try to drift back on course when he detects a slow slide developing but it's a risky maneuver if there are other cars around. So I suspect they just reduce throttle to ease the rear back in.

I understand you're trying to emphasize a technical point with your Mosport suggestion but my original request was for a declutching function that works in daily driving situations. On an F1 track it would only apply when speeds are low and there actually are many hairpins that result in low speed turns. If an F1 driver loses it in those turns I don't see why declutching won't help them.

I purposely picked the Cali because I don't intend to race. If I did I would have considered a 458 or MP4-12C or something similar. It would have been a mid-engine coupe.

I created this thread so that Ferrari might consider giving back a useful function that was partially lost when it committed to only F1 transmissions for its street cars. I used this function on my BMWs for many years and it's what's recommended by our driver's manuals. That's all this is.

 

...actually, I need another coffee.

 

Really? And you expect people to take your comments seriously?

 

Actually, just what do you drive? It may explain your low opinion of other drivers and the SGI Driver's handbook. When you imply the handbook does not apply to ALL driver, you must be one of the exceptions.

And would you care to enlighten us on your wealth of knowledge re weight transfer? How about slip angles since that's related?

Actually, I was just being polite when you criticized me on physics. How about explaining your views on what happens to the car's momentum and KE during cornering and braking? What's your background regarding your knowledge of physics, just wondering? It would lend your assertions some credibility.