Ferrari should offer N button on F1 steering wheels

That's a valid question that I did consider. I think it is to avoid confusing some drivers who are not used to driving manual transmission RWD cars. Most drivers fall into this category today. RWD also behave very differently compared to FWD. Many FCar owners just like to own a really cool car, not necessary want to drive them much or explore handling features.

That's also why I worded the thread title the way I did - "Ferrari should offer N button..." rather than Ferrari should have N button...

It should be optional.

I also considered that when I placed the order. My other option was a 6-speed DBS Volante, another GT. I'm used to a heavy clutch on a V8, big heavy cars. They are very compliant on the road and I love how they can still handle well. Engaging both feet whilst driving was also a very hard thing to give up but the AM appears to be fussy with maintenance and not up to the Ferrari on technology. And then there's the hardtop convertible feature.

In the end, I had to compromise and the Cali was the better of the two. I will pay significantly more for my Cali but it's clearly the better fit. If I can sort out my garage, I can still consider adding another car but the California feels very right for me.

Time matches on and I have to learn to get used to the F1 paddles if I like the car enough. The N button is useful and for a serious driver, it should be an option. When you drive a sporty car, control is the key element. It can be a Mazda Miata because when you have the control connection with your car, it feels like part of your body. 3-paddle cars do this. I do not really care for electronic controls. Remember when we had to practise pumping the brakes to avoid skidding in Winter panic stops? That was OK with me.

I also purposely bought my BMW 540i Sport because it is more challenging to drive but it offers a lot of control so you can have fun figuring out the best way to tame it. I like cars that have an attitude so long as they can be coaxed via controls. Without control, you're just a passenger and the car feels remote. My 540 was exceptionally good-natured, almost as if it possessed a spirit. It always pulled me through. I couldn't believe how nicely it drove when I took it to Ferrari to trade in. It was very hard to give her up.

 

This thread just wont die will it ? Neutral is a really BAD BAD idea...end of thread !

I wont disagree that most drivers today have never touched a RWD drive but most drivers today who can afford a Ferrari know exactly what a RWD will do and not do. There might be the odd Bieber out there who can afford a Ferrari in his teens, but I believe most Ferrari owners are older than that and like me will have been driving RWD for 30+ years.

Wait, I just realized a need for the N button on the steering wheel...your bodyshop manager has 2 college aged kids and you want to help him get them through college.

 

Actually, my mundane DD has RWD, AWD and 4WD ... 395 HP, 407 lb-ft torque... drives like a sports car. I love it!

BTW, don't you guys feel silly trash-talking someone you don't even know. What else do you do for kicks?

You know of course, that it's bad Karma because you won't forgive yourself for such behaviour. You may not know it now but it will catch up with you. You are your own worst critic.

 

Fine. Your opinions duly noted.

 

Damit! I'm almost out of vodka!

 

...there's always coffee instead.

 

Actually, he makes a very valid point. I've hit black ice before, and I know when I'm driving on conditions I'm uncertain of I slow it down a little I tap of the throttle a little and drive like a normal person would, you know the kind, the ones that don't like to fall of the road every single time they drive.


The times I've hit black ice, have been in different cars, from an automatic to a full on rwd car with no ABS, no traction control and certainly no stability control, just a front turbo engined, manual gearbox in the middle drive at the rear car, on twisty back roads. Every single time without losing complete control.

It doesn't take a genius to drive properly when you know there's black ice on the road, so the point didimao0072000 is very valid; are you as infantile in real life as it seems like judging by your ridiculous comments?

 

You may or may not be aware that black ice is often formed when warm water hits a cold pavement. This can be on a country road, often a corner where the morning sun does not hit the road but does hit the higher ground above it. Overnight moisture runs down and freezes on the shaded corner. If it's a bit windy there it makes it worse. Otherwise, it's a bright sunny crisp morning.

Another situation is in-town driving as you pass an area where the sun is blocked by adjacent buildings. Damp pavement is water in the sun, ice in the shade.

You don't need to be going fast to spin on black ice.

None of the electronic aids are of any use here and you should know that. They either need marginal traction or some braking distance to slow the vehicle. In urban environment or country roads you have no room to bleed off speed. Your only real option is to regain control and steer out of the skid. If the spin happens fast enough, you cannot recover, you brake, try to steer and just hope the car comes to a stop without hitting anything or anyone.

Wonderful. And a good day to you too... in Botswana of all places!

 

OK, I calling my drug dealer. What should I start with? Pot? Hash? or should I go straight to the hallucinogenics?

 

Hash Oil Change

or, as the blonde hipsters call it . . .

420 710 change


via rubber ducky

 

Do you want the whole list of vehicles since I obtained my license in 1975? Currently, I have a track modified supercharged 1996 Miata, a 1995 Miata, a 2007 Audi S4 Avant, and a 2010 Audi S5. All with manual transmissions.

Re weight transfers and slip angles knowledge - I've studied everything from Skip Barber to Piero Taruffi (look him up, his book should be a bible for performance driving), attended several performance ice driving schools on nearby Ghost Lake hosted by the Calgary Solo Club, attended many performance driving schools, an open wheel formula car racing driving school where I obtained my competition license, etc.

Re physics knowledge - Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering, 1981.

 

...whatever

???what???

 

The Miatas are OK but I would have left them in OE setup... better balanced. As for the Audis, nice technology, horrible front grills, not RWD but very practical AWD. What can I say, I've been a BMW driver for almost 30 years, and then came Mr. Bangle.

Regarding your driving and formal education, it looks impressive. So can you translate all that into your technical thoughts on weight transfer, slip and drift angles, energy dissipation, conversion with regard to the arguments against declutching and steering in a snap oversteer situation with an RWD vehicle?

I would find that interesting.

 

I've hit it on country roads. I've lived in many other places than Botswana. And what did I state? I've also hit it in cars with 0 electronic aids. Probably should mention it had a fully locked diff also.


brick wall. Why am I talking to it.

 

I don't mean to pile on in this thread, so I'm just going to offer the OP a suggestion. Install your own N button so you can coast through emergencies as you like. I can't speak specifically to the wiring of a California, but the insides I've seen of late model steering columns lead me to believe that the wires from the paddles are probably exposed under the column cover, where they'll go into a computer module mounted inside the column. Tap in, so you can trigger both paddles at the same time, and spend a few bucks having a really zoomy bracket made to hold a high quality, nice looking switch. You can mount it wherever you want. Or even multiples, put one inside the seat for those PUCKER moments!

Beyond that, you might try contacting the factory. Perhaps they'll make you a bespoke steering wheel, but that will cost a lot more than the other option.

You're not going to suddenly convince anyone else here to petition Ferrari to start offering a neutral button on their steering wheels, as you're the only person who sees safety value in this. Myself included.

Obligatory qualifications list:
My Ferrari is a 78 308. I don't drive it in winter here in Michigan.
My degree is in mechanical engineering.
My low mu vehicle control background is that I'm a ABS/TC/ESC development engineer at a major auto manufacturer.

 

Well, you shouldn't be surprised at all.

I mean why would anyone with 40 years of happy, good driving experience suddenly change his mind about a driving skill that is firmly advised in official handbooks, that has proven very handy, just because a few "experts" and trolls want to rant?

And I share your experiences with black ice. You can lose it on a 4WD too and since you've locked the diffs, you were already expecting trouble and it didn't matter. I wouldn't blame your experience on bad driving, they were just tough conditions.

FWIW, I recovered very well every time I experienced a side-step due to black ice because I was prudent enough to be driving at reasonable speeds for the conditions, and knew how to regain control. BMWs do have sophisticated traction control but defeating catastrophic changes in traction are not within the realm of today's electronics. Drivers should not depend on the electronics - we're not "crash-test dummies" and not every car we drive will have the same or any electronic aids.

 

I think you make a good suggestion. I would be able to do it if I have the time. The best starting point is to find an intact steering column and wheel from a wrecked California to study and modify. I'd have to have a lot of idle time and some space but I have no doubts that I can execute quite well if the DCT controls are logically and efficiently designed on the Ferrari steering wheel.

Actually, your suggestion brings up a potentially neat business concept - depending on whether the respective OEM factories take a dim view, after-market customizable F1-style steering wheels may represent a viable tuner market to explore.

I created this thread not just as a message to Ferrari but to also alert enthusiasts to the existence of such features that in this case, recovers a capability lost when car makers stop offering manual transmissions.

I have to say this again - control is the key to enjoying the relationship you have with your car. If you can only sit in it, press the throttle and follow the white lines, you are only a passenger. If you understand how your car works and behaves and you can tweak it, it becomes part of you. And that makes your car a formidable tool when you explore it in a thoughtful way.

 

OK, first i will admit, I got exhausted reading this whole thing, so I probably only saw the highlight reel

Anyway, I've driven a California, driven a FF and driven in a 458 at plaid speed...with all the modern technology in these cars, if you have to resort to dropping into nuetral to save your butt, you have really stepped in it and I doubt anything will help you.

These cars don't have traditional traction control, they probably have the most advanced performance tuned electronic systems on the planet. I have seen a 458 do things that simply defy the laws of physics thanks to drivers aids that do absolutely everything to compensate for the schmuck behind the wheel. The idea that you may come into a situation where these electronic aids will not be able to help you, but a dump into nuetral will, simply defies all reason to me.


Just my .02

 

Thanks Joe, I appreciate your candid feedback. I'll keep your comments in mind when I rack up the miles on my California... still, I won't assume anything about the electronic aids. I'll likely mostly drive it in SPORT mode.

BTW, how long you own the 3 cars and which one did you end up keeping? Or, did you keep all 3?

 

Drive it with CST off and then we'll talk

As for me specifically, no disrespect to those who own them, but modern Ferraris, and sports cars in general just aren't my thing. I have a buddy who has been trying to coax me for years into getting a newer Ferrari. I've driven most of them, they are just not my bag...though I am a bit fond of the 16M

I like a sports car to be very basic, very fundamental. The last Ferrari I enjoyed driving was a 355 and the only modern sports cars I have really enjoyed were the Lotus Elise and the Mazda Miata. Of course, don't use me as a barometer, I may pick up a Morgan Three wheeler next year!

I don't want to turn this into a thread about old vs. new... my opinion on new sports cars is well documented on this site if you care to read through my old posts.

As for the California, I think the car is a real hoot. It makes great sounds, is well appointed, very reliable and has a killer gearbox...luckily for you Ferrari still makes cars for you to enjoy, and luckily for me, there is still a great back catalog of old school designs.

If G$d forbid I get in an accident, I will wish I was in a California, but all other times, I will take my nasty rip snorting Testarossa out to play and enjoy trying to master her while she tries her best to kill me! To me that is what driving an exotic car is all about.

 

I'm thinking about it but I wouldn't be doing much of that at least until I know the car thoroughly in sport mode.

I think I share your fondness for the essence of the Testatossa. But I sense you know there'll come a day when you'll feel OK with moving on.

As for the 16M, I would personally just buy a yellow 430 spider and use the savings to spend on my outings. Unless you track the 16M, it's a waste of money and a yellow open top will more than keep you entertained on the road... take you to interesting places the Testarossa and 16M cannot.

 

It appears some earlier posters to this thread want to rekindle their argument in other threads instead of directing their comments here. It's impolite to hijack other people's threads so I am ignoring anyone who post messages just to heckle. However, for those who mistakenly post earnest legitimate comments to the wrong threads, I will redirect and respond to them here, to keep everything on-topic.

Here's one such posting in its entirety. My comments will follow in a separate post:

 

Phill, you posted on a thread where I was describing how going to neutral would have helped to avert a medium-speed 458 accident on a highway. I was not referring to F1 racing. The guy was just trying to go around what he felt was a slower vehicle on an Italian highway and he messed up in a very unfortunate manner.

So your comments on the use of the N button in F1 racing was really not relevant to an accident while driving a 458 on public roads. That's why I have redirected your comments here.

******​

Now, in your long message (reproduced verbatim above), you say while the official F1 website comment refers to the N button being used in a spin it is actually referring to its use after the spin has settled down, not during the spin.

You also say:

"...If the spin turns out to be uncontrollable then their next action is to pull the clutch paddles in to pull the clutch in because these are a lot easier to find in an out of control car than a single button on the wheel that may well be either upside-down on full lock during a spin..."

"...neutral button is placed next to the thumb so it's immediately available without having to look at the wheel when the driver is turning into the pit-box during a race..."​

So your contention is that the button is "immediately available" without having to look for it but it's harder to find than the clutch paddles.

And finally you reinforce your argument that the clutch paddles and not the N button are used to engage neutral.

"...they (F1 drivers?) pull the clutch paddles in long before they go for the neutral button!"​

And you attached a "James Allen (JA)" video intervene with Oliver Fairclough, a Lotus F1 electronics dept rep (LOTUS) where the conversation goes as follows:

JA: If he starts to spin, does he grab that (clutch paddle) or is there an anti-stall function...

LOTUS:There is an anti-stall function already programmed to the control systems on the car but that will only keep the clutch disengaged for a certain amount of time

JA:Alright

LOTUS:So yeah, he does need to... to pull the clutch after a certain period again

JA:Thanks for showing us

LOTUS:No problem

JA:Thanks.
​

You use this video interview to point out that F1 cars have anti-stall features that momentarily prevent stalling after a spin and that afterwards the drivers pull the clutch paddles to engage neutral.

I trust you see why I have a problem with your arguments. You are contradicting yourself. You originally claim the official F1 website comment refers to the N button being used AFTER a spin but then proceed to claim and provide video footage to show that F1 drivers pull the clutch paddles to engage neutral and don't use the N button at all.

In order to believe what you are contending, one would have to say the official F1 website is wrong and that F1 drivers only use the N button while in the pits.

If you read the rest of this thread you will also understand why I find it all very difficult to believe what the detractors are saying, because:

At first, people said the N button is only for pushing dead cars off the track,
Then it was to prevent stalling,
Then someone pointed out there's anti-stall and neutral's not needed,
Then you say the N button's only used after the anti-stall had kicked in,
Then you contradict yourself and say paddles are in fact used after the anti-stall,
and now the N button is only used in the pit lane.​

All the while, the official F1 website simply says the 'neutral' button (vital for taking the car out of gear in the event of a spin).

I have a possible answer to your contradictions. The Lotus guy did not provide a full description of the purpose of the N button. It's true because he did not mention its use in or after a spin, nor did he mention its use for taking dead cars off the track.

BTW, I did see an F1 driver solidly plant his thumb on the N button throughout a spin in an F1 race. I'll post it if I can locate it again.

 

I admire your tenacity to continue to claim that race drivers use the Neutral button to control a spin when they actually use it to prevent the engine from stalling.

Kai

 

The wall we are talking to is too thick.