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Discussion in '360/430' started by RBM, Nov 7, 2011.

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  1. F430addict

    F430addict F1 Rookie

    Sep 17, 2010
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    #176 F430addict, Mar 16, 2013
    The level of detail you are going into to further lighten the scud is commendable. There is so much for us to learn here. Kudos for your effort!
     
  2. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

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    #177 RBM, Mar 17, 2013
    The CCM hats are not compatible with the bolt circle of the CFRC rotors, so the reverse will be true; the hats for CFRC rotors will not bolt to the stock rotors. I posted the weights of the stock Scuderia hats. I don't have access to a F430 with CCM for comparison purposes. If there's a difference, it's probably a function of cost savings; not an intentional effort to undermine performance.

    Based on pad wear, my assessment of the Scuderia is that it is already over-braked in the rear. 380mm rotors would be unneeded cost and weight.
     
  3. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    7,290
    #178 freshmeat, Mar 17, 2013
    Partly why I never bothered changing out the rear...have you had a chance to take it out for a good whirl yet with the rear RS19s? I'd like to hear your impressions of the RS19s all around.

    Thanks!
     
  4. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

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    #179 RBM, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Last year, I got a set of adjustable drop links to replace the stock fixed-length drop links on the Scud. I just received an update to the adjustable drop links to correct one of the limitations we identified last year with the version 1.0 drop links. The new links (version 1.5) use tapered bolt heads and spacers to increase the range of travel of the spherical bearings in the links without binding.

    The updated bolts and spacers are made from aerospace-grade titanium, to replace the production-grade steel bolts and aluminum spacers. Also, each bolt and spacer is designated for a specific link, so the part count has been reduced by ten (10) pieces, by eliminating the need for multiple COTS spacers on each of the links.

    For comparison purposes of the ARB Hardware (complete sets), here are the weights:

    • Adjustable drop-links, ver 1.0 ( 8 pcs. steel, 18 pcs. Aluminum) = 0.415 kg/0.92 lb
    • Adjustable drop-links, ver 1.5 ( 16 pcs. Titanium) = 0.280 kg/0.62 lb

    The other limitation of the version 1.0 drop links was the inability to dial out the pre-load without disconnecting a link. This is a much tougher problem to solve, so they are still working on that one. Maybe that will a 2014 product release....

    For production finishing and quality control purposes, they used the OEM Ferrari titanium lug bolts, made by Poggipolini, as the benchmark. Poggipolini supplies the titanium hardware to the Ferrari F1 team as well, so their quality is the gold standard for titanium hardware; far superior to the aftermarket titanium hardware coming out of China, by a wide margin. The drop link hardware meets or exceeds all the Poggipolini hardware benchmarks.
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  5. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

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    #180 RBM, Apr 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  6. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

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    #181 RBM, Apr 2, 2013
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  7. Stevely

    Stevely Formula Junior

    Jul 21, 2011
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    LA, CA
    #182 Stevely, Apr 2, 2013
    Hey RBM:

    Could you clarify why you modified the drop links? What do they do? Why are they not designed well in the Scud?

    Thanks.

    Steve
     
  8. SSR

    SSR Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2007
    1,134
    #183 SSR, Apr 2, 2013
    I have the same ones,this ones can be adjusted to eliminate pressure from the bars specially then corner balance.
    They make some noise after some time,but I like them.
     
  9. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

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    #184 RBM, Apr 2, 2013
    Yes, see posts #1, #8, and #77 thru #81 in this thread.
     
  10. awatkins

    awatkins Formula Junior

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    #185 awatkins, Apr 3, 2013
    As I imagine you know, the usual solution to the 180-degree increment problem is to use two female-thread rod-ends, one LH thread, the other RH, joined with a stud that also has opposite direction threads. Examples are Mcmaster-Carr 6275k57 and 6275k67, $15 each. This particular style rod end may also solve your angular range problem since they are of the same style (enclosed ball joint) as the Ferrari part) and have 34 degrees travel.

    Also, is there any particular reason you are making both ends of the ARB adjustable? Seems to me you really need the adjustment at only one end. How much do the Ferrari links weigh? And is weight perhaps why the Challenge parts are so expensive?
     
  11. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

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    #186 RBM, Apr 3, 2013
    They are looking at a double female, reverse thread option, but space is limited. Making two different drop links, adjustable and non-adjustable required double the design effort.

    I will do a weight comparison of the stock drop links to the new ones.
     
  12. awatkins

    awatkins Formula Junior

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    #187 awatkins, Apr 3, 2013
    Regarding needing only one adjustable, one would make a new non-adjustable only if it were lighter than the Ferrari part. Hence the weight question.

    Another idea is simply modifying a stock one: cut it in half, thread each end in opposite directions, and then reconnect with an internally threaded sleeve.
     
  13. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

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    #188 RBM, Apr 4, 2013
    Yes, a double male, reverse thread option is another choice, but there are still the space challenges. I can re-post the photos, but there is only about 40mm (1.5") total link length to work with on the front links. Not much design space.... Also, whether you use female or male, you have to have space for two locknuts.
     
  14. awatkins

    awatkins Formula Junior

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    #189 awatkins, Apr 4, 2013
    Yes I saw that. I have a similar situation on a race car. But each end of the adjustment sleeve needs only about a shaft's diameter of threads. And of course usually you can afford to make the link a little bit longer since all that does is lower the ends of the ARB a bit, and in most situations that's just a minor ground clearance issue. And normally you need just a little adjustment range to zero out the ARB.
     
  15. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    #190 FerrariDublin, Apr 4, 2013
    Sounds like you thought it through pretty fully Bob. Great, informative and inspiring thread, do keep developing and posting please.
     
  16. awatkins

    awatkins Formula Junior

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    #191 awatkins, Apr 4, 2013
    +1! And it just occurred to me that right about now would be a good time to try what I'm proposing on my own CS. Anyone have any front droplinks they don't want?
     
  17. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

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    #192 RBM, Apr 7, 2013
    Here are the weights for the various drop links:

    Stock steel, non-adjustable drop links (set of 4) = 0.955 kg/2.10 lb
    Adjustable, steel drop links, ver. 1.0 (set of 4) = 1.035 kg/2.28 lb
    Adjustable, steel & titanium drop links, ver. 1.5 (set of 4) = 0.900 kg/1.98 lb
     
  18. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

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    #193 RBM, Apr 7, 2013
    Do you own a left-hand tap & die set?
     
  19. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

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    #194 RBM, Apr 7, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The issue is different on the front axle, because the ARB is above the suspension, rather than below it. So, adding length to the drop link raises the ARB up into the travel volume used by other suspension components. See photos below. That said, I did extend my adjustable links to full length and test-fitted them. There does appear to be some clearance still, as shown in the photos. I will do some road-testing in the future to verify the clearances. But I am sticking with the original design parameters for the upcoming track test.

    However, increasing the length did create another issue. Again, you can see in the photos that the link angles on the mounting bolts increased significantly off of the desired perpendicular. I can adjust for this with the adjustable drop links by ordering different thru-bolts and spacers, which are available in three different lengths now. Those using the stock Ferrari drop links will have to accept the extreme load angles, along with the binding and inevitable buckling that will occur.
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  20. awatkins

    awatkins Formula Junior

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    #195 awatkins, Apr 7, 2013
    Not yet. :) Actually I'll get just the tap and die needed (eg 10 mm).
     
  21. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

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    #196 RBM, Apr 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As discussed early in this thread, I identified a shortfall in the Scuderia's suspension design that limited the amount of camber shims that could safely be installed. I recently acquired a set of extended lower front A-Arm studs that solve the problem. These studs are 10mm longer than the factory studs, which is long enough for a set of shims that will provide over 3 degrees of negative camber in the front AND provide full engagement of the retaining nut on the stud.

    Since the studs are made of Titanium, they are lighter than the stock studs, even though they are longer. Also, their aerospace quality and finish are definitely superior to the production-quality studs from Ferrari. In the side-by-side photo, both studs are brand-new, straight out of the packaging.

    Front lower stock steel studs (set of 8) = 0.215 kg/0.48 lb
    Front lower titanium studs (set of 8) = 0.145 kg/0.32 lb
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  22. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
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    #197 freshmeat, Apr 8, 2013
    Where can I get some!?
     
  23. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    #198 FerrariDublin, Apr 9, 2013
    .... and I !

    Nice development. I had considered longer studs myself but realised recently that the washer behind the upper A-Arms is more of a spacer than a washer - measures about 3.7mm from recollection and this gave me the additional camber I desired (but the nuts on the lower arms are still a worry as they're not fully secured and I need to check them very regularly for peace of mind).

    My concern about lengthening the studs was that I could end up putting an overload on the studs (lever effect) and so I didn't go there. Titanium is surely an answer and once the mounts are sufficiently strong I guess the idea is "golden".
     
  24. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

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    #199 RBM, Apr 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Step one of the install of the new, lengthened studs is removal of the stock studs behind the lower A-Arm, and removal of the washers/spacers behind the upper A-Arm. The washer trick was mentioned early on in this thread, and it is worth 0.8 to 1.0 degrees of camber.

    If you unbolt just one A-Arm at a time, you do not have to remove the entire suspension corner from the car. It helps to un-bolt the steering tie rod and loosen the spring perch on the coil-over (reducing spring load) to make it easy to re-position the lower A-Arm.

    The lower studs screw into time-serts, that are threaded into the aluminum sub frame. The studs are installed with blue lock-tite, and two of the eight brought the time-serts out with them. So, they had to be separated and re-installed. Annoying and time-consuming, but no damage done.
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  25. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

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    #200 RBM, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
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