Stupid 458 accident

He wouldn't have had any "accident" if he had set the 458 manettino to WET.

I have to say, driving your brand new hot car for the 1st time with a "buddy" (or worse still, several "buddies") has to be the most unwise and dangerous occasion you can have in that car (aside from being an a*s and drunk). Explore your new car by yourself or with an instructor.

I wonder if his buddy suggested trying the manettino in CT OFF or ESC OFF mode.

 

would an "N" button on the steering wheel have helped?

Just my $0.02...

Wet mode (or any mode) can help but can't prevent anything if someone tries hard enough.

Hard to tell from video, but appears the guy hit the throttle (weight off the front), made an abrupt steering input (weight to front left), rear end broke loose, car rotated with no/slow steering or throttle correction.

These are skills best learned on a wet skidpad and practiced. This is similar to that video of a Gallardo doing this (in the dry) coming off a traffic light/left turn, same principles at work.

 

As Jeremy Clarkson states, these sort of incidents are usually preceded by the statement:


"Watch this!"


Followed by:



"That's not gone well!"

 

He entered the highway with his signal on and plenty of room in the merge lane. Very simple maneuver. Increase speed, upshift,merge left and get the feel of the road. Leave the theatrics for a dry road with little traffic.

 

+1

 

He wouldn't have had any accident if he had a brain.

I've driven the 458 in the wet at Spa Francorchamps on the limit in RACE. She is quite forgiving - IF you realise that you have 562bhp under your right foot. A wonderful car to drive on the limit.


Onno

 

OK, I watched the video several times and my answer is YES. This was a recoverable spin.

I timed the crash 3x with my Swiss chronograph (1/4 sec intervals) and not a stopwatch but my watch exceeds the accuracy of a Swiss chronometer. From beginning of the spin to approximately 450° it was 3.75 seconds. From when he first started to spin to about 80° it was 1.5 seconds.

An experienced and good driver with an N button and fast reflexes would have responded within 0.5 seconds and the drivetrain would immediately declutch, and the car steer away from the spin within the next 0.5 seconds and straighten out. The important thing at that point would be to re-apply throttle so that following traffic wouldn't have to slam on their brakes to avoid you.

This was a medium-speed spin and quite recoverable within the first 1 second. Since the car's electronics did not prevent the accident, it was no longer an issue of just letting the car save itself. As I indicated, he probably had the car in the wrong driving mode and the electronics weren't allowed to intervene. He wasn't going very fast.

If you want to recover from the spin you must do so well before the car has spun 90° away from the intended direction.

PS: Here's another observation I can make... at approx. 1 second into the spin his car was about 40° and pointing right at the car videoing the crash. To avoid hitting that car during his correction he must slow his car so any throttle at that point is a very bad idea because his car was faster than the car doing the videoing. If he declutched, his car would immediately slow, give him more time to steer back on course. Braking is OK if all 4 wheels have regained traction, but not if cars behind run into you as a result.

 

I agree.

 

I'd be afraid to look at a 458 if the manettino was switched off.

 

Please. In a nasty spin trying to find a button on the wheel is the last place even a good driver would want it located. (F1 is different, the wheel never moves in a full rotation like a street car) I can't agree that pulling the paddles is worse than finding a button on the wheel. Even if your correct about it saving the car, the wheel is not the place for it.

 

I would disagree and I'm also quite puzzled that you think the steering wheel is a bad place to place important car functions.

Your profile says you own a 458 and the 458 has no turn signal stalks - they're 2 buttons on your steering wheel. So Ferrari seems to disagree with your suggestion.

Anyway, if you look at a true Ferrari F1 Racing steering wheel, the N button is right next to the left thumb, same as the case for several other racing teams' N buttons. It's like pressing the Ferrari street car horn, which is for the same sort of scenario... an accident avoiding action that needs to be done very quickly. It's easy to find and use the Ferrari F1 Racing steering wheel N button.

F1 racing drivers don't move their hands from the steering wheel at all so that tells us they want all their important driver functions accessible from their steering wheel. If the N button is one of the closest to the F1 racer's thumb then it's because it is the easiest location to reach... unless you want to risk reaching blindly for buttons behind the wheel. You say "...the wheel is not the place for it" - well then, explain to me why Ferrari F1 race cars have their N button on the "wheel".

As for comparing the action of pulling on both F1 paddles instead of an N button, in situations of correcting a spin, the steering wheel would not be in a level position where your hands are at 10 and 2 o'clock. Your hands are likely moving with the steering wheel and not able to reach both (fixed) paddles at once. The Ferrari street car F1 paddles are quite small - which is why there is an aftermarket demand for much bigger paddles.

Why do you think Ferrari F1 Racing steering wheel doesn't use the "pull back on both paddles" action to go to neutral?

 

560hp + 3300lbs + wet road + new-to-car driver = crash!

 

Profile says 07 430.
Like I said, F1 wheels don't apply, it's almost always in a fixed position due to the fact that it doesn't require a full rotation to turn a corner.

Lets assume that you lose control of the car in a hairpin like turn. You really think that there is enough reaction time to look down and figure out where it is?

And everything is on an F1 wheel because there isn't exactly a dashboard in the cockpit.

 

Obvious newbie had a humiliating experience. Probably was told what the thing on the steering wheel was. Just didn't understand. ... Now he does.

 

I regret baiting this thread derail with the "neutral" question.....ugh. I meant that sarcastically. However, since we're back there...

1) key functions on the 458/FF/F12/et al wheel to me is genius. Takes some practice, but love it now...signals, wipers, lights. (I regard Mannettino, Start Button and Bumpy Road switch as stuff that could be on the dash).
2) in F1, everything is on the wheel other than the Fire System Trigger, KERS ground and brake bias (which by rule is mechanical IIRC). Neutral is mostly used when they come in the pits so the mechanics can push the car backwards.
3) neutral is NOT a primary technique to bring a sliding car into control. "when in a spin, both feet in" is what you do AFTER you've lost control. It's aimed at locking up the brakes (so you slide in a straight, predictable direction, and don't roll backwards at speed into a barrier) and keeping the engine either running, prevent it from flooding (old carbureted engines) and protect it from going 6K in one direction and suddenly stopping or going the other way. (BTW, ABS sort of prevents lockup, the car can and will roll)
4) in the case of this video, the fastest way to save the car might have been quick steering corrections ("fast hands") and a flinch of the ankle. Slow(er) hands often cause a tank-slapper, slow hands result in what you saw.
5) I have slid, drifted and spun a 430C....hands moving, feet moving. Cannot imagine being able to grab a paddle, or find/push a button when it's happening. FWIW have also done it on skidpads with a Cali and 458. (note - FF is different as the front wheels can save your bacon with different techniques).

Find a wet parking lot with nothing to hit. Do a wet skid pad exercise....try for yourself what puts a car sideways and what recovers it. Better yet, go to a real car control clinic.

Have a nice weekend.

 

My bad, I see the 458 is actually one of your "want-to-have" cars.

I suspect your F430 is an F1 then, am I correct?

In an emergency steering response to a snap oversteer, you won't be making small slow adjustments - you'd have 0.5 seconds or less to correct the steering, in a big way.

The 458 is 2 turns lock-to-lock so you have to make at least a half-turn to steer into a 45° misstep. To make a half turn puts your hands anywhere from 12 + 4 o'clock to 4 + 8 o'clock. How do you simultaneously reach both F1 paddles and then pull back while at those hand positions with your hands busy turning the wheel?

Also remember the F1 paddles must be simultaneously pulled vs. pushing one button that's always next to your thumb. Which is easier to do?

In an F1 racer it's next to your left thumb, like the 458's horn? If you can sound the horn in an emergency... I mean, do you have to look for the horn when a pedestrian appears about to strays into your path? Your hands should already be at 10 + 2 o'clock.

Well, the 458 turn signals don't need a dashboard but Ferrari made them into buttons. Ditto for the wipers, high beams. Ferrari put them there so they would be easier to operate.

 

I see/understand your reasons. And frankly I've learned quite a bit from your posts. Maybe I just don't think I'm a good enough driver to react that quick. I've driven the italia and actually think that the signal buttons are cool, if going straight. I tried to signal in a corner and it was a 'whoops' moment. I think it's a pretty cool thing they've developed, but at least for me until further use, I prefer the stalk.

I think it would be interesting to see the N button in action the way you describe. That's if it is effective in the situation you say.

And yea, the 430 is an F1. Wish it were a stick! Wouldn't be selling if that was the case.

 

Well since you regret doing so, I would advise you to refrain from repeating the mistake.

That's not what the official F1 website says. It specifically says it is clearly stated on the F1 description of the F1 steering wheel where it says:

"...The first buttons to appear on the face of the steering wheel were the 'neutral' button (vital for taking the car out of gear in the event of a spin), and the on-board radio system's push-to-talk button.'​

If the neutral button were simply for pushing the car then it does not need to be within easy reach of the driver's thumb while both hands are busy steering. It's clearly meant to be used by the driver, while driving.

That's all I'm going to say because I hate repeating myself and I don't want to appear sarcastic.

 

I appreciate your candour. My reflexes run in the males of my family. But I have minor "ooops" moments too as I like to explore limits under safe conditions otherwise I don't know where they are and that's dangerous. But this maneuver is really meant for every driver to execute. People with slower reflexes also tend to be more cautious and less likely to lose it in spectacular fashion. So it evens out.

I think you'll land your 458 when the right moment arrives, probably way before I do. I share your nostalgia for a manual - I may want to get a manual 360/430 just for that reason. F1 paddles feel like push-button driving and I miss having my left foot doing something. I picked the California because I think it is a good 1st Ferrari to explore - won't wake up the neighbours as much, not too much of an attention-magnet , is a hardtop convertible, has "back seats", sound great when I want it to and is still obscenely fast. I think the Cali and the FF may be the best keeper DDs because they can do the practical things the other Ferraris don't or shouldn't do.

 

F1 drivers do not immediately press the neutral button in a spin!

When that site says that the neutral button is for use in a spin, it doesn't mean during the spin itself, it means when the spin has settled down and the car is either going again or the car has come to a halt and cannot rejoin the track for some reason.

If the car starts to spin the first thing an F1 driver will do is try to control the spin with the throttle and brakes and try to drive out of it.

If the spin turns out to be uncontrollable then their next action is to pull the clutch paddles in to pull the clutch in because these are a lot easier to find in an out of control car than a single button on the wheel that may well be either upside-down on full lock during a spin, or shaking violently if they've gone off track.

Once things become more settled with the car they will then press the neutral button to reset the gearbox because it's the quickest way to get the car going again. Once it's in neutral they can then sort out which gear their in to pull away again if possible (They may still be moving fast enough not to need 1st gear, but might need 2nd or even 3rd gear - Chances are, what they wont want is the gear that they left the track in!).

The neutral button is placed next to the thumb so it's immediately available without having to look at the wheel when the driver is turning into the pit-box during a race - why do you think the pit-lane limiter button is placed next to the other thumb? - in case the driver fancies pressing it out on track?

Here's how a pit stop works:

1) The driver enters the pit-lane, approaches the pit-lane speed limit line, brakes hard and presses the pit-lane limiter button with his thumb.

2) They then drive down the pit-lane on the limiter.

3) As they turn into their pitbox they press the neutral button with their other thumb and free-wheel into their pit-box.

4) They hold the brakes on full to stop the wheels rotating during the wheel change and as the car is lifted up on the jacks they engage 1st gear and pull the clutch paddle in.

5) The car is dropped off the jacks and as soon as the driver sees the green light on their pit-lane gantry they get off the brake, press the throttle and gently release the clutch paddle, the car then accelerates up to the pit-lane limiter which they stick with until they get to the end of pit-lane line.

6) They then either press the pit-lane limiter button again to switch the limiter off or they have a system whereby pulling for 2nd gear automatically switches off the pit-lane limiter and they accelerate away.

On top of this, all of the F1 cars also feature an anti-stall system that automatically pulls the clutch in if the revs drop below a pre-set limit. This is why some drivers struggle to pull away at the start of a race or in the pit-lane - the driver allows the revs to drop too much, the anti -stall cuts in, pulling in the clutch and it takes the driver a split second to realise that he's got a box full of neutrals and needs to do a quick re-set.

If you want to know about the neutral button on an F1 car, come on over to the F1 section and ask -there are plenty of very knowledgeable people who will explain it to you.

A Word of warning though, pretty much all of them will tell you exactly what I have told you, they pull the clutch paddles in long before they go for the neutral button!

Try watching this (especially@4:04! ):[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58Zkbbfygjw]How an F1 steering wheel works - YouTube[/ame]


The guy from Lotus clearly states that in the event of a spin, the anti-stall should cut in but it will only hold the clutch in for a certain amount of time so the driver will have to pull the clutch paddles in to stop the engine stalling. At no point does he mention the driver pressing the neutral button during a spin.

 

Phill, I'm rather surprised that you would want to discuss the role of engaging neutral in F1 racing in this thread and at this time. I discussed the use of the N button on 2 other threads where the first thread directed that discussion to a thread dedicated to the subject. This was 2 weeks ago.

Your last comments are veering off-topic in a rather big way.

You should instead be directing comments of this nature to the Ferrari should offer N button on F1 steering wheels thread in the " Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)" area.

Otherwise, you are confusing a discussion on how one can recover from spins like what happened to this 458 on public roads with how F1 Racing deploys clutch paddles, N buttons and anti-stall. What I tried to point out is that driver's handbooks tell us to disengage the drivetrain when we try to recover from a spin on public roads. And that this mundane maneuver works brilliantly in low and medium speed situations but that unfortunately, it's also quite impractical and possibly unsafe in such situations to try shifting to neutral using current F1-style paddle setups in Ferrari road cars. Having an N button on the steering wheel would fix that.

I have more important errands at the moment and I'll answer you later... from the other thread.

 

Forget it. We have already tried unsuccessfully to explain to him that you don't use the neutral button to control a spin...



Kai

 

Kai, we know you disagree with advice given by driver's handbooks to engage neutral when correcting a spin on public roads. I happen to agree with the driver's handbook.

 

Don't invite him there!

 

If that guy was the driver, how did he get out and up the wet/muddy hill in white pants & shoes...without a mark on his clothing?

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