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Ferrari should offer N button on F1 steering wheels

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by 4th_gear, Mar 29, 2013.

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  1. don_xvi

    don_xvi F1 Rookie

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    #126 don_xvi, Apr 15, 2013
    You're still wrong and hard-headed about this, but you have a real sense of proper netiquette, and for that I genuinely respect you. I was about to start screaming in that other thread when it started getting derailed...
     
  2. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

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    #127 subirg, Apr 15, 2013
    Oh man, this is the zombie topic that refuses to die quietly. I'm going to have to refill my popcorn AGAIN...
     
  3. didimao0072000

    didimao0072000 Karting

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    #128 didimao0072000, Apr 15, 2013
    I too was hoping this thread was going to die. Its all cute and fun with the back and forth banter but I fear some driving noob might read this and take his neutral advice seriously and end up getting maimed or killed.
     
  4. JoeZaff

    JoeZaff F1 Veteran
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    #129 JoeZaff, Apr 15, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
    4th Gear-- I am still struggling mightly to understand the usefulness of an N button in a modern sports car.

    If modern traction control is designed to cut power to the wheel that loses traction, proportion power appropriately to regain control, and use braking to the appropriate wheel as well to regain stability... WTF use would a neutral button be? Especially since your reaction time is nowhere near the capability of these systems


    Even if I am to accept the virtues of the N button, that you proclaim---which I respectfully do not--It would seem to me it would be a recipe for disaster...especially to be placed front and center as it could accidently be bumped---potentially causing an accident rather than preventing one.. Alternatively, if you take it off front and center, it would be useless because it would take too much time to access it.

    Unless you deactivate the driver aids on these cars, they are profoundly stable with even the most hamfisted operators. 9 out of 10 times, if you exceed the ability of these aids, you have probably already surrendered the car to the laws of physics and are just along for the ride anyway.
     
  5. Statler

    Statler F1 World Champ

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    #130 Statler, Apr 15, 2013
    Luckily any normal person who is new to driving rear wheel drive cars and is reading this thread will come to the conclusion that taking an advanced driving course is a better option to listening to a person with whom nobody agrees.

    4th gear, your advice is dangerous. Stop suggesting people put a vehicle in neutral when the rear slips.

    Before you attack my location and car ownership, and to supply the threads requisit self-history: spent years with my (Canadian) dad drivIng on frozen lakes.

    Best thing any driver of any vehicle can do is go take advanced driving courses. Internet experts are dangerous.
     
  6. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    #131 4th_gear, Apr 15, 2013
    I'm actually doing my taxes at the moment so I'm only posting now because people seem to have such a problem with what appears to be a very straightforward concept.

    1) many of the people posting replies have a serious mental block. Once again, the use of going to neutral to recover from a spin is ONLY applicable in LOW SPEED and MEDIUM SPEED situations - going to neutral WON'T SAVE A HIGH SPEED SPIN.

    2) if your car does go into a spin, then the electronic aids CST/CT, ESC...etc. have lost it. They no longer work. Unless you let the car crash on its own, it's up to you to manually intervene. You're the driver, not the passenger.

    3) the driver's handbooks ARE CORRECT.

    4) with regard to 3), North American driver's handbooks only refer to driving within posted speed limits - that means not faster than 100 kph (highway) in Canada (urban speeds 40-70 kph) and usually 55 mph highway in the US (with some exceptions). This means the driver's handbook advice does not apply to racing or track speeds. So you petrolheads need to calm down - no one is telling you how to race. Here's what I would consider as the likelihood of successfully correcting spins using neutral at various speeds:
    SCENARIO . . . . . . . . ACTUAL SPEED . . . . . . . . PROBABILITY OF RECOVERING BY GOING TO NEUTRAL
    low speeds . . . . . . . 10-50 kph/5-30 mph. . . . . . . . . . high (but CST/CT should catch these)
    medium speeds. . . . 50-70 kph/30-44 mph. . . . . . . . . high to moderate
    high speeds. . . . . . . 70-100 kph/44-62 mph. . . . . . . . low
    race speeds. . . . . . . 100+ kph/62+ mph. . . . . . . . . . near zero​

    Going to neutral will not work at high speeds because there is not enough time for a driver to react. Driver's handbooks will also tell drivers to slow down under dicey conditions. The other thing that should happen in a good driver's head is a spike in vigilance. The driver should go into "fight-or-flight" mode, as it causes a spike in adrenalin, which drastically improves your reaction time. It also helps if you have a solid background in competitive physical sports and are in good physical shape. Notice the F1 racers are all athletes.

    But it is still extremely unlikely to recover spins at high speeds (maybe a 360° if you're lucky), which is why you must adhere to advice from driver's handbooks when driving on public roads and drive within advised limits... or you are on your own.

    Advanced electronic aids like DSC, ESC, CST/CT...etc should prevent low speed spins. However they all require marginal traction to be present in order to modulate power, braking and weight transfer at the 4 corners in order to play with the slip angles. Higher speeds can cause sudden complete loss of traction. Once the car spins then it means there is ZERO TRACTION, ZERO SLIP ANGLES at those wheels and the existing electronic aids simply do not work any more. A clear example of this sort of traction control system limitation was just posted by LukeyLikey who experienced a sudden misstep on a wet corner in his California 30 in sport mode and had to manually correct to control the pretty significant misstep. He reacted quickly, corrected early (25°) and was probably able to adjust steering and modulate throttle to regain traction and therefore, control.

    I have already tried to explain the dynamics behind why going to neutral and steering into a spin will correct a spin if the driver can respond well before the car spins to 90° from the intended direction of travel. I can actually offer another scientific perspective to explain the the dynamics but I really need to stop here today.

    It takes real work and careful thought to post useful comments. So far I appear to be the only one that bothers to use science to explain... in spite of all the claims from hecklers telling me to attend driving schools and pay instructors. I find it ludicrous and sad that people who claim to have attended such courses can't explain their own assertions and can only heckle, put down drivers who follow well-tested advice offered on everyday driving from driver's handbooks.

    I have to attend to other tasks now. Enjoy.
     
  7. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

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    #132 James_Woods, Apr 15, 2013
    4th Gear, would you suggest declutching a manual transmission early Porsche 911 when it is starting to spin?
     
  8. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    #133 4th_gear, Apr 15, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
    If you still have some traction, you should only reduce throttle or the early 911 will do a snap oversteer and land you way over one side of the road, tail-first.

    Otherwise, if the said early 911 no longer has traction, it is likely already off the road thanks to its "behind the rear-wheel lump". It was a horrible design idea.

    PS: if you understand weight transfer, engine-braking and slip angles, going to neutral is quite different from and still not as bad as throttle lift-off with the 911.
     
  9. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

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    #134 James_Woods, Apr 15, 2013
    Manifestly WRONG.

    1) reducing throttle on an early 911 in a drift is an almost sure provocation of a spin. You have to maintain throttle and countersteer out of it.
    2) What difference does it make what you do if "you have no traction"?

    I suggest that you read Jackie Stewart's comments on spins in his autobiorgraphy "Faster".

    He essentially says that once it has spun, it has spun - there is nothing you can do about it other than trying to keep the engine running. That is the only reason to declutch or go to neutral on a sequential gearbox.

    Going into neutral on a road car because it has started to spin is quite simply NONSENSE.
     
  10. 250 lusso

    250 lusso Karting

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    #135 250 lusso, Apr 15, 2013
    Jackie Stewart didn't write the Saskatchewan Driver's Ed handbook, and might never have driven in Canada on an icy road, so he can't be trusted.
     
  11. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

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    #136 James_Woods, Apr 15, 2013
    Notice, dear readers, that I refrained from commenting on the extremely arrogant remark that the classic Porsche 911 was a "horrible design"...
     
  12. JoeZaff

    JoeZaff F1 Veteran
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    #137 JoeZaff, Apr 15, 2013
    FWIW,
    I have gone to driving schools over the years, including one using open wheelers and had a track day with an ex-cart driver in the passenger seat. I have also done who knows how many autocross events.

    I have never heard before this thread, anyone ever suggest throwing the car in neutral to do anything other than prevent a stall.

    This whole notion is just baffling to me.

    I also have never seen it done by a rally driver or, quite frankly in any motorsport event I have ever watched---except where the car was already beyond saving.

    No disrespect intended, but I don't think there is any support for your argument to be found anywhere outside of your theoretical proposition...

    FYI, as someone else has said, the best way to guarantee your 911 ends up in the weeds is to reduce power...
     
  13. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    #138 4th_gear, Apr 15, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
    So now you are talking about a drift, rather than a spin. I remind you that just a few minutes ago, you posted "...early Porsche 911 when it is starting to spin...". You need to be clear and honest about the scenario.

    In a drift or power slide, you are purposely relying on power + traction to increase the rear outside slip angle. A drift is a gradual oversteer modulated by power to the rear tires. The driver purposely puts his car sideways, usually to execute stunt driving. A spin is not a purposeful act, especially when driving on public roads by the average driver or even in the middle of an F1 race.

    You either don't know the difference between a spin and a drift or you are trying to trick me into saying something wrong.

    A spin is not a drift or a power slide. Everyday drivers going around a corner on public roads and experiencing a spin are patently not drifting or power sliding their vehicles.
     
  14. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    #139 4th_gear, Apr 15, 2013
    I'm not sure how else you'd define "flying off the road, tail-first". Even Porsche had to do something about that in "later" 911s.

    Anyway, this is off-topic and I'll ignore any further comments about it on this thread.
     
  15. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    #140 4th_gear, Apr 15, 2013
    Joe I'm curious, but have you ever read or checked your driver's handbook? And does it also tell you how to introduce a power slide to go around a corner?

    I won't tell you how to do stunts or race and I don't expect you to tell the motor vehicle department how to drive on public roads by drifting or power sliding.

    This is about driving to the proverbial grocery store on public roads, not doing a stunt on a track.
     
  16. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

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    #141 James_Woods, Apr 15, 2013
    OK - for the record:

    1) I have owned eight air cooled 911s over the years - starting with a 1969 911T in 1969, the last being a 1996 Carrera Targa. I know something about spinning and/or drifting these cars. As Joe says - lifting on the throttle (or, God help us, putting it in neutral) at the limits of adhesion will almost guarantee a spin which might be preventable otherwise.

    2) Again - there is NO BENEFIT in putting an already spinning car into neutral other than possibly keeping the engine from being killed (in a racing car). NO BENEFIT AT ALL for a street car - no matter what kind of street car: Rear engine, front engine, AWD, front drive, rear drive, --- NO BENEFIT.

    Joe Zaff, please continue.

    I am through with this insanity.

    Obviously, nothing short of a lobotomy is going to cure it - and probably not even that.
     
  17. JoeZaff

    JoeZaff F1 Veteran
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    #142 JoeZaff, Apr 15, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
    OK, now I am mad at you ;)

    I took the bait and just pulled up my damn driver manual for PA-- I couldn't find any mention of dropping the car into neutral.

    However, to your larger point, the right thing to do is the right thing to do. Physics don't change whether you are in a grocery getter or an F1 car... if dropping the car into a neutral was a good idea...it would be a good idea everywhere.

    I have to bow out of this debate now for fear of smashing my head against this computer and ruining a good computer and an OK head... ;)
     
  18. rcallahan

    rcallahan F1 Rookie
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    #143 rcallahan, Apr 15, 2013
    I just woke up from my self drug imposed coma and I find this thread and 4th gears unbelievable **** is still going on.

    Maybe one explanation is that he is really jacque villeneuve taking us all for a fun ride or he has been in a terrible spin on ice and the brain is still recovering from the trauma.

    Maybe, just maybe, he really thinks that the combination of his brilliant mind and the Canadian Drivers Handbook IS the answer and all of us who try to help him with our own brilliant minds (and true experience) are dangerous drivers that do not understand "slip angles, drifting verses spinning, power sliding, etc."

    I would never want to be a passenger (even on dry roads) with this guy and I hope anyone reading this in Canada will seriously consider before getting in the car with him.

    Now, where is that number for my drug dealer...:)
     
  19. rcallahan

    rcallahan F1 Rookie
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    #144 rcallahan, Apr 15, 2013
    BTW, I saw your comments on hand placements on the steering wheel in another thread, you are truly newbie in driving skills and theory. Do yourself a favor and your passengers, forget the Canadian Drivers Handbook and take some driving classes.
     
  20. don_xvi

    don_xvi F1 Rookie

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    #145 don_xvi, Apr 15, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
    Just to add fodder to the discussion, I checked a couple of Canadian provinces' drivers handbooks and they did indeed suggest declutching in a skid.
    I checked a number of border states in the US (Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota, Michigan and Vermont as I recall) and found a mixture of advice. Details soon...
     
  21. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    #146 4th_gear, Apr 15, 2013
    OK I have a few minutes to kill before I have to run again. Sorry if my opinion of the early 911s comes across a bit brutal but those cars did have a "reputation" and you did pose the question on a Ferrari forum without indicating you owned one. I understand the modern 911s no longer have that issue but I'd still prefer a Boxter. ;)

    So anyway James, let's say you were driving your "early" 911 around a city corner, with pedestrians at the sidewalk waiting to cross, the usual parked cars along the curb... and then you feel the rear end starting to go sideways. What would you do to avoid having this turn into a spin or causing injury / damage? You're in the middle of a turn, with people and parked vehicles around you.

    This is exactly the kind of scenario I have in mind when I originally posted the idea to have the N button make engaging neutral much easier to accomplish rather than to locate and pull back on both F1 paddles while trying to quickly steer with both hands.

    Please keep in mind that I am not interested in tracking or racing my California 30. It's a GT after all. If I were interested to race, I'd probably pick an RMR... a 360 or 430 and would definitely take track lessons from the pros to refine my technique and learn new tricks. But at least for now, I am only concerned in daily driving.

    I have used the neutral/opposite lock maneuver on many occasions (drove regularly through ice, freezing rain, snow storms to/from skiing for years) and it works great. It's a great technique for low-medium speeds on slippery public roads.
     
  22. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    #147 4th_gear, Apr 15, 2013
    That's interesting research... would be good to understand it better. Thanks Don!
     
  23. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    #148 4th_gear, Apr 15, 2013
    Have to run real soon but your experience with the PA driver's handbook may reflect what Don has found. Canadians do experience snowy and icy driving conditions more often and do tend to err on the side of caution more so than most folks.

    The neutral/turn-into-slide maneuver is very safe at low and medium speeds. At high speeds, the declutch part is still doable but it's really hard to steer fast and accurately enough. That's why most people just end up locking up the brakes and praying. Neutral does allow the brakes to work more efficiently by eliminating having to brake against the drivetrain - "both feet in".

    Have to go now.
     
  24. don_xvi

    don_xvi F1 Rookie

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    #149 don_xvi, Apr 15, 2013
    Washington: Stay off the brake, Steer, Continue to steer
    North Dakota: RWD: Stay off brakes, steer; FWD: "accelerate slightly and steer in the direction you want to go. If there is no room to accelerate, shift into neutral or push in the clutch. Remember, front-wheel drive vehicles have positive, accurate, and quick steering; the vehicle goes exactly where you point it."
    Minnesota: "stay calm--do not overreact or slam on the brakes. Instead, take your foot off the accelerator and brakes until you can turn in the desired direction." That's all they say in Minnesota, because everyone there already knows how to drive in the snow!
    Wisconsin: Stay off the brake, Steer, continue to steer
    Michigan: off accelerator, turn in, countersteer as necessary
    Vermont: Stay off the brakes, Steer, prepare to steer back
    New Hampshire: RWD: Stay off brakes, steer, be ready to countersteer. FWD: Steer, apply throttle, do not brake
    Maine: Stay off the brake, steer, turn back
    Honorable mention: Colorado: "let up on the accelerator and turn the front wheels in the direction of the skid."

    I'm coming back later tonight with popcorn... for real!
     
  25. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

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    #150 James_Woods, Apr 15, 2013
    That is, quite frankly, just a LUDICROUS scenario...nobody drives any car (911 included) around a city corner with cars parked at the curb and pedestrians on the curb to the point of loss of traction unless they are insane.

    However, if I were in a high speed turn in an early 911, and felt it start to put the tail out - I would maintain throttle and very gently countersteer into the skid. At that point you can delicately balance the car with throttle and steering - if you are capable of it. If you are not capable of this, the car will spin.

    Put quite plainly - under NO CIRCUMSTANCES would I declutch or select neutral in a 911 (or any other car) because I felt it start to skid while making a turn.
     
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