Ferrari should offer N button on F1 steering wheels

Had to do some yard work... all done for now... but I missed dinner.

Interesting survey Don... hats off to you for effort!

The problem with lifting off the gas before declutching is that the engine-braking effect of lifting the throttle will result in a sudden braking effect from the drive wheels (ie the rear) and in a developing spin, this will kill any marginal traction you have left in the rear tires and aggravate the spin. The authors of those driver's handbooks may not be thinking stick-shift!

You have to declutch first. You can actually keep your foot on the throttle and let the clutch back in as needed (in a manual tranny car) while steering into the spin. As you feel the tires regain traction you can steer back away from the spin and lift your left foot, letting the clutch back in, as you modulate the gas peddle.

I would be surprised if nobody's done this before. It's perfectly sound from the dynamics point and easy to do so long as you're not going too fast.

This is where F1 paddles simply cannot match the degree of flexibility and control provided by a 3-peddle car. A fully manual car allows the driver to feel and directly control everything. Driving-by-wire is the pits in comparison but unfortunately, the car makers have pretty well killed that option for new cars.

 

Patches of ice or "greasy" spots from water mixed with dirt can appear at intersections. But actually my point was that your car may develop a spin in a corner where you have little room to maneuver or play with. Under those circumstances, if you apply any more throttle and you fail to recover from the spin, the added throttle will worsen the ensuing crash. The scenario I describe is a low speed scenario where there is little or no slip angle at the rear tires and the car is simply following the front wheels (mild understeer). Should the rear do sideways because of a loss of traction I would simply ease off throttle without engine-braking, allowing the rear tires can match forward speed and regain traction. That's what I was trying to make a point of. Engine-braking is bad for a 911 whilst cornering so only reduce throttle enough to regain traction. The rear contact patch is not deformed.

Your scenario is once again focused on high speed, which I have repeatedly indicated that I am not, because my scenarios are on public roads with no emphasis on speed. So my suggestion of easing the throttle won't be enough because in a high speed corner, the big rear tires of the 911 will create a large slip angle to achieve cornering while there is available traction.

In your high speed scenario, you would put the 911 into a drift by steering into the spin while maintaining and modulating the steering and throttle. The maneuver you describe is correct - but only if you have high speed and can find traction. Drivers normally do their drifting on normal road surfaces because the reduction of traction that starts the spin is gradual. If you do this on ice, you would have to create traction using heavily studded tires. On a rain-soaked corner, you'd have to pray the rain tires work really well. So the drifting maneuver you describe does work but only on predictable and controlled surfaces.

WHAT HAPPENS IF I APPLY NEUTRAL WHILST CORNERING AN OLD 911?
Well, I don't have any 1st-hand experience with a 911 but I can try to reason it through. At low speeds, the 911 would behave very similar to other RWD cars where the rear contact patches are not deformed and cornering normally exhibits mild understeer. Loss of cornering traction is due to too much throttle. So applying neutral would remove the throttle and simultaneously prevent engine-braking, which may otherwise unsettle the car. It should work fine at low to medium speeds where the 911 is not developing any slip angles at the rear. Slip angles at the front introduces understeer - think of it as a plowing effect. Reduction of speed increases understeer which you can counter by steering more into the turn. So this is the slow speed scenario.

At high speeds, the usually fat 911 outer rear tire will create a massive slip angle during cornering. If the car is put into neutral, power to the rear tires would stop, forward acceleration will stop and the slip angle would suddenly increase resulting in a similar increase in oversteer. You get sudden oversteer when you do this at high speeds.

Now, if you lift throttle instead of going to neutral, the power to the rear tires will also stop, just like in going to neutral... BUT, with throttle lift off, it's worse. Because instead of only stopping forward acceleration as in going to neutral, you also get braking from engine-braking. The slip angle effectively goes beyond 90°. You get one huge snap oversteer. It's like doing a handbrake turn on a 911, with that big lump hanging past the rear tires.

But this does not happen if you are cornering your 911 at low speeds where rear slip angles are tiny to begin with and the front tires do all the cornering.

 

Have you read the entire thread?

 

Sitting down to a very late dinner, only then did I realize there was an apparent terrorist bombing earlier at the Boston Marathon. It's heart-wrenching to see some many innocent people hurt and killed by this senseless act. It brings you back down to earth and puts everything back in perspective. There are more important things in life. My thoughts are with the victims and their families. We need to put an end to this evil.

 

It's called "slipping the clutch". If you actually knew how to drive a manual, that should have been obvious. So it appears you don't drive a manual and I hope you at least agree that it would make your discussing this thread "quite problematic".

Pete, I don't mean to be personal but I hope you understand that given your inability to understand how a driver of a manual tranny car normally manipulates power to the wheels by a combination of throttle and clutch control, that you are being presumptive and just plain wrong, if not also rude and disruptive. The lack of similar controls in an F1 paddle car is a major disadvantage, especially in performance-oriented driving. Even the N button is just an ON/OFF switch, whereas a manual clutch can be infinitely manipulated to provide very fine control of power delivery/torque to the driving wheels. It's one reason why 6-speed manuals are revered by many drivers.

Finally, I decided to take a day off so as not to allow the noise from this thread interrupt my day as I follow the developments from Boston. The bombings have nothing to do with this thread.

 

Actually, I'm also not sure what racing on an early 911 Porsche has to do with me, this thread or with Ferrari. The early 911s had a RR configuration that obviously had unpopular and unique "design issues".

Still, I answered your 911 query and gave you a very good technical reply because I wanted to analyze the 911 simply out of curiosity. The 911 design suffers from the pendulum effect created when sudden engine-braking is introduced by throttle lift-off when cornering with marginal rear traction.

It's essentially the same effect as pulling the handbrake without declutching.

Well, you are wrong.

Here is what I originally wrote to explain the purpose of my thread to BMW.SauberF1Team

This was the 5th message on the thread and at the time, BMW.SauberF1Team was the only person who had posted a reply.

Actually, do you guys check slip angles to analyze setups as they pertain to effects on steering and traction?

I don't think this comment is appropriate.

 

Don, I haven't changed anything. I spent a peaceful day yesterday out of respect for the gravity of what happened in Boston. Everything I posted on this thread is consistent with the originally-stated purpose of this thread. I always try select my wording to convey the most information in the most direct manner. My formal education was in medical research. I always try to be consistent and logical when I discuss technical issues.

So you see, I'm not a politician - I'm the opposite. But I'll let you know if I do decide to change my mind or occupation.

Since you brought up the idea of surveying how often driver's handbooks advise using the neutral gearing approach to controlling spins and skids, I had a look across Canada.

We have 10 provinces and 3 territories in Canada. For the purpose of driver's handbooks, you can think of these jurisdictions like separate states. I found 6 provinces advise the use of this method for tackling loss of traction. One territory, Nunavut, was only created in 1999 when it split off from another territory, the Northwest Territories and I could not find their driver's handbook. They only have a population of 32,000 people so I suspect they still use the handbooks from the Northwest Territories. Here are the provinces that advise the use of neutral gearing to control spins, skids or loss of traction that affect steering.

The Saskatchewan Driver's Handbook is acknowledged as the best in Canada by experienced drivers that I personally know.

[size=+1]MANITOBA

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NEW BRUNSWICK

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NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR

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ONTARIO

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PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND

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SASKATCHEWAN

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BTW, a skid *is* different from a spin but the neutral gearing action achieves the same effect on the rear wheels in both situations... that of allowing the rear wheels to regain traction.

 

Don, you may have missed the last sentence in that message I posted. Here it is:

If you are turning left and your car skids to the right instead of making the corner, it would arguably be called an understeer because you just drifted to the right instead of rounding the corner to the left. But the fact remains that a skid is often the first sign of an impending spin and is caused by the same problem - loss of traction from the rear tires.

So therefore to counter either a skid or a spin, you do the same thing, regain control of your rear tires. Your contact patches are the most important things in the control of your vehicle.

I think people are reading too much into this statement. In the blue highlighted text I refer to my personal interest for better control of declutching and the neutral gear to avoid spins that can occur with throttle lift-off everyday on public roads (i.e. NORMAL DRIVING).

Whereas in the red highlighted text I am pointing out that if you track an F1 Ferrari street car it might be a similarly good thing to have the same N button that Ferrari puts on the steering wheels of their F1 race cars. Don't you think this would be a good idea? If Ferrari uses the N button for racing and your track car doesn't have it - wouldn't it beg the question - why not?

I want to repeat this point: the N button is found next to the thumb and F1 cars already have anti-stall and paddle control of neutral - so why is the N button so important to place prominently on the steering wheel?

Not a problem Don, I appreciate your thoughtful and polite messages.

I am on several online forums and have worked in very large institutions; all places where emails and electronic messages substitute for face-face meetings. It's very problematic. You can only write so much to explain complex ideas. So politeness, patience and etiquette are very important... as well as a lot of time to type and edit messages before pressing SEND. Forum users do not always understand or appreciate these concepts.

If you look at my messages, I am much more considerate and diligent in posting and explaining by using visual and technical aids. I don't just say something and ignore having to back up my assertions. I do read posts when I am bored but I post messages when I am interested, not because I am bored. I do not try to stir people up - I am much more interested in sharing and discussing ideas. I am not out for kicks. I don't even watch TV. I am interested in making things and improving things. Life is short.

What I intended with this thread was merely to share ideas I learned from experienced drivers in Canada on this forum... 6MT cars do offer much better control and driver interaction than F1 cars. Going to neutral when necessary is part of that. Unfortunately, true 6MT cars will not be returning to the market. So adding the N button would be useful for people accustomed to controlling their cars by modulating clutch, throttle and steering input. It's a good thing.

Time for me to take leave - I have contractors to manage, taxes to pay and 3 parties to call and negotiate a contract with. Have a good day!

 

Well it happens that I do know the difference between skid and spin. "Skid" differs from "spin" because the latter indicates circular displacement while the former does not indicate any direction. So "spin" could be consider an instance of "skid".

You would have to ask the handbooks' authors if they meant anything else. But IMO, the generic English meaning was intended for a generic audience. Driver's handbooks are designed for all readers and only expect readers to assume a generic meaning, not someone who thinks, as you stated "...I had oversteer, I thought I had it caught at 30 degrees of sideslip, but I ran out of talent and spun..."

I meant exactly what my statement implied, that the car simply skids to the right. It could be either a 2-wheel or a 4-wheel skid. You need to read and interpret exactly what I wrote. I meant both types of skids on purpose.

If the car is in a 4-wheel "balanced" skid, it wouldn't have yawed, wouldn't have turned and so it isn't a spin yet. Since the car hasn't turned in spite of steering input, then by applying your own logic, it has understeered and not oversteered as you insist.

Don, many people who drive in Canada and in parts of the US encounter very slick Winter road conditions. The handbooks use the word skid because it's a common English word that most people understand. They don't expect the average driver to be confused and have to explore the words skid, spin, oversteer... in online forums. OTOH, you may be an exception, if your comments are indeed sincere, something that I am starting to doubt.

Don, I had hoped for a more enlightened discussion with you. You are saying my statement about the usefulness of declutching to recover a skid or spin under track or race conditions is "incongruous" with my other opinion that recovery from spins at race speeds of 100+ kph/62+ mph is near zero...

I am surprised you know so little about F1 racing circuits. Even I know there are some very slow corners on a number of F1 circuits, especially in Europe and Asia. Here's one of the best known GP circuits, in Monte Carlo. Note the cornering speeds indicated. At least 3 corners fall within what I feel are speeds that permit recovery from a spin. Regardless of whether the speeds I picked are proven correct, my assertions are entirely consistent.


TURN NAME . . . . . . . .GEAR . . . . . . . . . . . SPEED
Anthony Noghes . . . . . 1st . . . . . . . . . . . . 88kph/55mph
La Racasse . . . . . . . . .1st . . . . . . . . . . . . 63kph/39mph
Loews . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st . . . . . . . . . . . . 45kph/30mph

[size=+1]MONACO CIRCUIT

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LOEWS

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There is no need for "the theatrics" and ranting. If you don't agree you can simply say so and justify your opinion. I may or may not reply. Similarly, you also don't have to read my thread.

As for my buying a Ferrari California, why is it any of your business to tell me to do otherwise? I think you are extremely rude. Good night and so long!

 

Well, you may want to read my latest posts then. Not questioning your racing skills but there are too many people in Canada (and the US) who do use neutral to get out of a spin or skid.

Good night!