Ferrari should offer N button on F1 steering wheels

I guess I was right...

 

If you pull both paddles you get neutral. Why do you need a separate button?

 

That's what my thinking is too. And in Ferraris, the paddles are always in a fixed location.

 

I've never in my live seen any driver spin at any of these corners. Ever.

What I find utterly hilarious is that you keep comparing road cars to F1, or how you interpret the use of the N button. Do you self (and the rest of us) a favour and shut up with your ridiculous theories.

 

So 4th_gear, do Formula 1 cars have potentially a neutral button for driving on snow and ice?

The answer is no, of course. The neutral button is never used for driving. Not sure what it is for other than pit situations.

Are you also saying that when you drive a car around a corner on a dry sunny day that you have your left foot playing with the clutch pedal altering torque to the driving wheels? Everybody else does this by altering the accelerator pedal position. I believe you will say you don't do this and thus your need for clutch disengagement (not neutral) is for ice and snow conditions only ... therefore your original premise based on F1 cars having a neutral button and thus Ferrari road cars should is bogus.

Also what you are really after is a torque controlling devise. Just imagine the binary torque to the driving wheels if you banged the car into neutral and then banged it back into gear again.

Cornering, even in the snow which I admit I have little experience in, is about having control of torque to the driving wheels and also ensuring sideways forces are less than the available grip. I can see feathering the clutch is one crude way of doing this (assuming you have the necessary funds for the extra wear and thus clutch replacements) but I can not see how the direct binary nature of using neutral can be a safe alternative. I'll stick with the universal and proven method of varying the throttle position thanks.

As I explained at the beginning of this post, F1 cars do not have a neutral button to aid car control and they don't race on ice and snow. Yes maybe for snowy conditions having a clutch button or pedal has some uses but not a 100% on or off neutral button.

Best
Pete

 

Absolutely

Pete - you're arguing against belief!

Using logic... and reason... and examples... will never work

Cheers,
Steve

PS: Just remembered that I didn't respond to your suggestion that I should try a modern FWD car like a Mazda 6... wonder if they have a neutral button on the steering wheel..

 

No, you need to be more specific and clear in your terminology to discuss what to do with a car.
In the example of "turning left and the car skids right" you now indicate you could be discussing either the car setting up a 4 wheel drift OR the rear end kicking out. Of course, this is where I was about to say that getting a 4 wheel drift on turn-in is pretty scarce except on sheet ice, but the solution is the same as if you have oversteer, being to turn in, and that actually leads into what's been a very important distinction that's been missing in this thread: road conditions and the effects of weight transfer.
There's been passing mention of "black ice, when the ESC can't save you" but the answer for what to do about oversteer really does change depending on the surface.
Regrettably, this whole neutral discussion started with mention of high grip situations, in which it's just plain wrong. Where's this oversteer setting in? Turn-in? Is there trail braking? Obviously, that's what needs to be addressed; you're using some of your valuable friction circle in the longitudinal direction when weight transfer has reduced the rear tires' capability. (This is where the shift-to-N idea almost pays off) You need to get capacity back into the rear tires (while steering for your life, of course). Getting off the brakes is the biggest thing you can do here. If you were decelerating at somewhere between 0.6 to 1.0 g, this is going to put the most normal force back on the rear tires. (yes, it's still using a tiny bit of their grip for engine braking in a RWD). The next thing you could do would be to shift to neutral! You're going from decel at the rate of closed throttle, maybe 0.05g to decel from aero-only, maybe 0.01g, shifting a little bit more weight onto those rear tires. Going to neutral will help! The next thing you could do would be to give the car a squirt of gas. Since you've already turned in, the car is pointing in the right direction, (earlier than you wanted!, and assuming you haven't gotten yourself into a tank-slapper), so now you've got a little can put more weight still on those rear tires by giving it maybe 0.2g accel (that's a squeeze on the gas, not hammering it, or you're done). We might call that "planting" or "settling" the rear just long enough to stabilize the car, then resume getting around the track. I've done it hundreds of times, it works. Yes, that's hitting the gas going into the corner.
Is the problem mid-corner? Pretty close to the same considerations; what can you do to get more weight on the rear tires to help with steering? Typically, this is where you see a driver "drift" through the corner by countersteering and using throttle-on oversteer to balance the car. Why do that, rather than trying to get the car 100% under control and cornering linearly again? Well, it's fun if you're on the street, and it's fairly controllable if you're on the street or track, and it's not costing you TOO TOO much time if you're on the track. Plus, it feels proactive.
Is the problem at exit? Back off on the gas, you gorilla! Or ride the drift out, see the last two statements above.

OK, clearly that was way too much writing, but the point I wanted to get to was that on a sheet of ice, as you see up there in Canada, I'm sure, since we see it in upper Michigan a few times each winter, there's no weight transfer possible. With a surface mu of 0.1 to 0.15, that's all the g's you can work with on ice. As a part of my job, I have a fair bit of driving, in a safe environment, on sheet ice, and this is where you have the best argument for neutral in a RWD car. Now, your engine braking (let's call it 0.05g again) is taking up a significant portion of the tires friction circle, all longitudinal, so if you add much lateral component at all, you'll step over the edge of it. This typically (always?) isn't a SNAP oversteer, it's something that you can control in a straight line with one hand, using your inner ears to keep the car traveling in a straight line without even having to look (ask me how I know haha), but this is quite disconcerting to the inexperienced, unprepared driver. Driving a manual transmission RWD on sheet ice... Yep, giving that extra lateral grip at the rear helps. Go for it, if you're thinking that fast and have your wits about you when it all starts going wrong. (Note that road crown makes all of this a bit more interesting!)

Tired of typing, no caffeine yet. I think the ice comments, probably the high mu comments, too, would be applicable for doing a lane change, too. Not going back to review and make sure at this point.

Interesting points not addressed: patches of black ice and "ESC: is it that useless?"

Finally, now I see that you're referring to this shifting into neutral as being helpful in slow speed corners in racetracks. I hadn't understood that subtlety of the arguement. I may not know any more than the average 17-19 race-a-year F1 viewer, but I'm always more excited about the drivers catching the cars in some of those insanely fast "skids" of the rear axle. Do you ever see these guys oversteer in the slow corners? Usually understeer. Car design; a lot to discuss. Only when they get on the power too soon. Is THAT the instance you're taking about using neutral?

 

+1

 

Try the Renault Megane R26R if you have the chance. bat **** insane, vacuumed to the road it seems.

 

OP, you appear to be someone who appreciates completeness of thought and solid analytical underpinnings to arguments.

To that degree, I would encourage you to consider a few things;

1) the source and basis of most of your argument are driving handbooks that are, at best, out of date and were based on techniques that were never based on more thoughtful techniques and skills.
2) the F1 wheel topic has been argued here. If you still doubt that, watch SpeedTV and send Steve Matchette a question; he will answer it and it will be the same answer as all the previous posters indicated.
2) physics is physics, and vehicle dynamics are the same regardless of street or track, high speed or low speed, new car or old car. Fundamentally, this is (still) about optimizing contact patches and friction, and the things that enhance or detract from that.

At this point, I am unsure further debate in this thread is going to influence your perspective at all. I would encourage you to invest in a world-class driving program. In particular, FNA runs the Ferrari Driving Experience every summer at Mont Tremblant.

FDE has world-class instructors; these instructors also happen to be top-level professional racers, but I will emphasize they are instructors. I have my wife going back again this summer to take the class. It's not a racing course, or a Ferrari course, it's a driving course, best I've seen (and I've been through them all).

You will spend a LOT of time in a California, on a wet skid pad, and in other cars on wet and/or dry track. Suggest you attend, you can learn from the instructors, and perhaps most importantly, experience real empirical evidence about what makes a car slide, skid or spin, how you induce that, how you recover, and how you prevent it. Go see for yourself.

I've been racing for a long time, and attended every good car control clinic, rally driving, snow/ice driving and even drifting course I can; I love cars, enjoy racing, and appreciate learning new skills. Neutral has never been part of a car control toolbox.

Suggest you find that wet parking lot or attend a course. Even if somehow you are correct, you will enjoy it, learn new skills/polish rusty ones and ultimately get more out of your new car.

 

There are no "theatrics" here. It should be obvious to anyone that has read this thread what is going on, and where it is headed.

The simple fact that Ferrari engineers, as well as the engineers at the NUMEROUS other manufacturers that produce automobiles with similar transmissions, have not found reason to put a neutral button on the steering wheel should tell you all you need to know.

There is no need to take it personally. It was merely a conclusion based on evidence gathered in this thread.

 

I predict 4 more pages and at least 5 more diagrams/pictures.

It's better than an airplane on a treadmill.

 

I just spit my drink all over the computer laughing!!!!

That was some funny stuff right there

 

This thread is like the flaming accident on the highway or the stubby fingered midget walking hand in hand with the big breasted blonde. We should all look straight ahead and move on knowing nothing can be done yet we're drawn to it like a pack of flies on a fresh steaming pile of horse manure..

 

I can't believe this topic still lives....

When I saw the OP's comment about "slipping the clutch" to control traction in a spin/loss of control I started to have serious doubts about whether he's ever even driven a car, never mind a "powerful MT RWD." With all the citations to drivers' ed manuals, he sounds like someone just learning to drive. Lots of theory, but his doesn't sound like a voice of actual physical experience.

Surprised no one has demanded proof of California/BMW ownership. This forum is usually pretty quick on that front.

 

So he’s either a troll laughing at all the responses he’s getting or he truly woke up in the middle night one day thinking he suddenly became smarter than all of the car engineers and race car drivers in the world and to prove it, he’s going to use driver manuals created for 15 olds to get their learner’s permit?

 

Like I said earlier, maybe he's JV just messing with us

 

He'll be back after mowing his grass or trimming his toenails.....

 

If you look at his other posts in the 458 and Cali threads you can see that he is still acting like he knows how to drive, drift, slide, over/under steer, etc. His comments on the correct hand positions on the steering wheel give him away.