Ferrari should offer N button on F1 steering wheels

Curious that you would call me a troll as this is MY THREAD and not someone else's. If I were a troll posting a nonsense or abusive thread then you just have to ignore the thread and the moderator would have pulled it long ago. It's also not like I'm jumping into other people's threads and posting off-topic, disturbing or insulting remarks.

The comments you are now making are the things that cast doubts on your sincerity. If you post a long-winded message that is extremely difficult to read, you shouldn't expect anyone to feel obligated to read or reply to it.

If you really want people to read it, you could have edited and re-posted your message instead of complaining now and doing nothing.

Sorry, I'll pass.

 

Sadly he's not a troll, at least not intentionally. You see, when someone has a Dunning-Kruger mentality they have to discredit anyone that threatens their bubble of self-delusion. While I will grant him that the formatting of your post was a little rough and difficult to read, it wasn't anywhere near unreadable. However, you left him no other avenue of attack. Somehow you managed not to be rude to him, a heroic feat, but that's his usual go-to for dismissing a point without addressing its substance. Since he couldn't attack the substance of your argument he dismissed it on what amounts to a technicality. Notice how he in no way addresses or acknowledges the substance of your post, textbook Dunning-Kruger.

Honestly guys, for your own (collective) sake stop beating your head against the wall that is 4th_gear. Let this thread die the undignified death it so richly deserves.

 

^^^ understandable POV. However, this thread has the potential for an Fchat Hall of Fame nomination. We need to give it space to flourish to its fullest, finest and most hilarious potential.

Re F1 box multiple downshifts, the OP clearly doesn't understand the benefit of engine breaking on F1, nor the rules banning semi-automated downshift program's...

 

Selespeed is just a marketing term; the correct one for the 8C would be Q-Select. In any case, the gearbox on the 8C is a Graziano Trasmissioni & Magneti Marelli 6-speed transaxle AMT, exactly the same as the one used on several Maserati models, and essentially the same as the one used on the 612 and 599 (I say essentially because the gearbox housing is different on those because of packaging reasons, and because the 599 has an E-Diff, while the 8C has an ordinary multiplate limited slip differential). The control logic, too, is the same "Sofast4" used by Ferrari.

The post you link to contains some incorrect information. The user says DSG is a single clutch AMT, while it's a double clutch gearbox. And Ferrari's (street) F1 gearbox does not need to select each gear during a multiple downshift. It will directly select whichever gear you asked for.

A brief on how Ferrari's (again, street) F1 gearbox automation works.
The control unit has 6 hydraulic valves (3 proportional and 3 one-off). One proportional valve controls the clutch. The other 5 valves are connected to two actuators on the gear selection shaft, which is exactly the same as the one on the manual version. 3 one-off valves determine which fork to actuate; that is equivalent to the horizontal movement of a manual gear lever. The remaining two proportional valves correspond to the vertical movement of a manual gear lever, and engage the desired gear.

As for the dual clutch used by Ferrari, it too has no mechanical need to select each gear sequentially, and has the ability to skip gears, with the caveats I outlined in my previous post. Therefore, it comes down to software.

In the worst case scenario I previously mentioned (odd gear to odd gear, or even gear to even gear), the control unit will probably prioritise not interrupting torque transmission to the drive wheels, and temporarily engage whichever gear was preselected on the other input shaft, while contemporarily selecting the gear you asked for. So, to use that 6th to 2nd scenario again, it would probably engage for a split second 5th, which is ready to go on the odd gear shaft, contemporarily select 2nd on the even gear shaft, and then engage that.

In a multiple downshift from an even gear to an odd gear, or viceversa, it would most likely just select whichever gear you asked for on the other input shaft before swapping the active clutch, since it can be done pretty fast, as every gear on the Getrag 7DCL750 has triple-cone synchros.

 

Since when is understeering into a wall a spin? Patrese's spin happened with a manual gearbox so your theory with the N button remains invalid.

 

I just watched Nico Rosburg encounter oversteer mid corner at the Bahrain GP. I noticed he didn't use the N button (visible through the entire shot) just steered.
A few laps before lap 38.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

 

He's obviously doing it wrong and did not read the Canadian driving manual...

 

Re: understeering in a Jag
He should have selected neutral. Followed by a real low gear! ROTATION!

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Alessio, thank you very much for sharing your obvious great wealth of knowledge with us.

As a small child I remember my father test driving an orange (or red) Alfa Romeo, probably a Giulia. It was very memorable because we lived on the side of a hill in a small valley and I vividly remember hearing a car roar up the narrow switchback road, the distinctive sound of a "real car" echoing across the valley, as I stood on our balcony even before I saw him. It was one of the few images and moments I clearly remember from my early years. He was very excited when he got out from the car but I think either my mother or concerns about the neighbourhood "sound effects" got the better of him, LOL! He was a real car nut.

It would be wonderful if the 4C makes it to Canada. I'd like to at least repeat my father's test drive.

Yes, I thought you might sort out the well-meaning but somewhat inconsistent discussion from that other thread. It's fantastic to read and learn from people like yourself, who are so much closer to and so intimately knowledgeable about the cars and technology that drive the passions we have for our hobby!

If you don't mind, I just have one last question... does the Getrag prevent over-revving if I pick the wrong gear on a downshift on my California? My car will arrive very soon. Thank you in advance!

 

Introduction
In the example of "turning left and the car skids right" you now indicate you could be discussing either the car setting up a 4 wheel drift OR the rear end kicking out. Of course, this is where I was about to say that getting a 4 wheel drift on turn-in is pretty scarce except on sheet ice, but the solution is the same as if you have oversteer, being to turn in, and that actually leads into what's been a very important distinction that's been missing in this thread: road conditions and the effects of weight transfer.

The discussion diverges
There's been passing mention of "black ice, when the ESC can't save you" but the answer for what to do about oversteer really does change depending on the surface.

High mu turn-in oversteer
Regrettably, this whole neutral discussion started with mention of high grip situations, in which it's just plain wrong. Where's this oversteer setting in? Turn-in? Is there trail braking? Obviously, that's what needs to be addressed; you're using some of your valuable friction circle in the longitudinal direction when weight transfer has reduced the rear tires' capability. (This is where the shift-to-N idea almost pays off) You need to get capacity back into the rear tires (while steering for your life, of course).
"Get off the brakes"
Getting off the brakes is the biggest thing you can do here. If you were decelerating at somewhere between 0.6 to 1.0 g, this is going to put the most normal force back on the rear tires. (yes, it's still using a tiny bit of their grip for engine braking in a RWD).
"Do you want to shift to neutral?"
The next thing you could do would be to shift to neutral! You're going from decel at the rate of closed throttle, maybe 0.05g to decel from aero-only, maybe 0.01g, shifting a little bit more weight onto those rear tires. Going to neutral will help!
"OMG! Accelerating into the corner!"
The next thing you could do would be to give the car a squirt of gas. Since you've already turned in, the car is pointing in the right direction, (earlier than you wanted!, and assuming you haven't gotten yourself into a tank-slapper), so now you can put more weight still on those rear tires by giving it maybe 0.2g accel (that's a squeeze on the gas, not hammering it, or you're done). We might call that "planting" or "settling" the rear just long enough to stabilize the car, then resume getting around the track. I've done it hundreds of times, it works. Yes, that's hitting the gas going into the corner.

Is the problem mid-corner?
Pretty close to the same considerations; what can you do to get more weight on the rear tires to help with steering? Typically, this is where you see a driver "drift" through the corner by countersteering and using throttle-on oversteer to balance the car. Why do that, rather than trying to get the car 100% under control and cornering linearly again? Well, (1) it's fun if you're on the street, and (2) it's fairly controllable if you're on the street or track, (3) and it's not costing you TOO TOO much time if you're on the track. Plus, it feels proactive.

Is the problem at exit?
Back off on the gas, you gorilla! Or ride the drift out, see the last two statements above.

Ice!
OK, clearly that was way too much writing, but the point I wanted to get to was that on a sheet of ice, as you see up there in Canada, I'm sure, since we see it in upper Michigan a few times each winter, there's no weight transfer possible. With a surface mu of 0.1 to 0.15, that's all the g's you can work with on ice. As a part of my job, I have a fair bit of driving, in a safe environment, on sheet ice, and this is where you have the best argument for neutral in a RWD car.

* The only paragraph you'll care about reading *
Now, your engine braking (let's call it 0.05g again) is taking up a significant portion of the tires friction circle, all longitudinal, so if you add much lateral component at all, you'll step over the edge of it. This typically (always?) isn't a SNAP oversteer, it's something that you can control in a straight line with one hand, using your inner ears to keep the car traveling in a straight line without even having to look (ask me how I know haha), but this is quite disconcerting to the inexperienced, unprepared driver. Driving a manual transmission RWD on sheet ice... Yep, giving that extra lateral grip at the rear helps. Go for it, if you're thinking that fast and have your wits about you when it all starts going wrong. (Note that road crown makes all of this a bit more interesting!)

"Just go ahead and squeeze"-New content in the "improved" "easier-to-read" edition!
Guess what's really cool that you can do in a TC-equipped vehicle when it's oversteering? Just squeeze the throttle. The TC system is tuned pretty well to avoid allowing enough rear wheel slip for the car to sustain oversteer, so when I generate some turn-in oversteer (especially on snow), I just mash the throttle and wait for the TC to settle rear. This will also work on gravel or pavement, but everything gets scary on ice.

Last thoughts
I think the ice comments, probably the high mu comments, too, would be applicable for doing a lane change, too. Not going back to review and make sure at this point.

Interesting points not addressed: patches of black ice and "ESC: is it that useless?"

A racecar followup
Finally, now I see that you're referring to this shifting into neutral as being helpful in slow speed corners in racetracks. I hadn't understood that subtlety of the arguement. I may not know any more than the average 17-19 race-a-year F1 viewer, but I'm always more excited about the drivers catching the cars in some of those insanely fast "skids" of the rear axle. Do you ever see these guys oversteer in the slow corners? Usually understeer. Car design; a lot to discuss. Only when they get on the power too soon. Is THAT the instance you're taking about using neutral?

 

Yes. The transmission control unit will refuse any gear change request which would result in over or underrev. It will also automatically downshift for you if you neglect to do so and get too close to idle RPM. Moreover, with the manettino in comfort mode, it will upshift automatically if you don't do it yourself and are about to approach redline, whereas in sport mode it won't upshift, and will bounce on the rev limiter until you select the next gear.

 

4thGear may I suggest you ask Rob Lay to change your loginname to Neutral?


Onno

 

Thank G@d, this guy looks like he will need all the help he can get.

 

Looks like you finally put yourself on ignore and are no longer distracted by the irrelevant videos, diagrams and references to instructional books for 15 year olds trying to get their permit.

Edit: I forgot to mention that yes, I am a measly non-Ferrari owning peasant. Please take this opportunity to ask me about that. While you are at it, please also let me know how that relates to what you are posting about as you are yet to have your hands on your Ferrari, so likely have no real world experience wrestling one at that dangerous threshold of loosing grip. I say this is likely as I sincerely do not believe any right minded Ferrari owner would allow you to drive their car, let alone drive it at its limit. Maybe you have and were spared from hitting a bunch of people/cars in the heart of a city by having a 500 millisecond reaction time and grabbing both paddles in time to save yourself from an uncontrollable spin. Although most owners are of sound mind, every once in a while someone(a looney) slips through the cracks and gets their hands on one, so there is that chance that you have had that experience. Also, Your steadfast belief in this neural idea combined with the fact that you are still alive leads me to believe that you likely haven't taken a Ferrari to this threshold, YET.

Your attitude is terrible. You cannot come to terms with the reality that this is useless/dangerous. The only serious content in this thread is from those warning you and others that in a spin/slide, suddenly throwing the car into neutral will only lead to an increase in the likelihood of you loosing a slide that is possibly recoverable and neutral is never used to be the reason for the save of a slide. It is only used to mitigate the damage to your engine when you are already in an uncontrollable spin, in which case nothing case you are already beyond saving the spin.

If you throw a car into neutral while spinning, you will not gain speed as you stated earlier. Your wheels are still in contact with the ground, so friction will be slowing you down, not speeding you up. Yes, you will slow down less quickly than if you are also using "engine breaking", but you certainly will not increase in speed in neutral unless you are heading downhill.

To address the suggestion stated in the title of this thread, for those 15 year olds driving a Ferrari on black ice, in the rain or cornering a hairpin at 55 and referencing Canadian drivers ed booklets, a better solution would be for Ferrari to offer those young adults larger paddles that their small hands can reach to get to neutral faster. Unless this magic button is in the center of the wheel, it will be in different positions depending on where you are steering. Unless the driver has the car heading straight, they will have to look down to see the current position of the button and will no longer be looking at the road. By the way, if the car is heading straight, I think even you agreed that "engine breaking" is beneficial in that instance. Larger paddles would allow this Canadian booklet referencing individual to reach for the paddles without taking their eye off the road and possibly without removing their hands from the steering wheel.

Ferraris take more than basic techniques from booklets to realize their full potential and as a 40 year driving veteran you should realize that there are better techniques than basic ones taught to you as starting points when you're 15 and do not fully understand the dynamics involved when driving. I am not sure your booklets account for the electronic aids that come with your modern Ferrari.

You reference F1 cars, but when presented with the information that the N button is not used how you assumed it was, you then say that you are just talking about black ice and driving speeds encountered when driving within the legal speed limit. The same physics apply to both situations anyway, but it doesn't help your nonexistent case to keep flip flopping and think that people are too stupid to catch on.

If you are a troll, I applaud you. If so, you are 100% in the top 3 I've ever seen and are competing for #1! Plenty of trolls make their own threads, so the fact that you started this is not proof that you are not. NO one else would have started this thread for you, so trolling would require starting it yourself.

I would be honored if you would add me to your precious "ignore" list with the rest of the insane wackos who posted relevant information in this thread . I tried to use as many punctuation marks and carriage returns as possible to make it easy on you. On a serious note, Congrats on your cali, but I would not disable any of those aids if I were you. Enjoy the new car and be safe, if you avoid spins in the first place you won't need to get yourself out of them.

I know I had more points to harp on, but my mind is blown after this one. I'll update when I piece my brain back together. **** I'm bloated now from all that salt and butter on the popcorn.

 

Excellent. That's what I had suspected but I feel a lot better having you confirm it, given your thorough knowledge on the matter. You have a feel of someone who is comfortably engaged in automotive engineering and design.

The California DCT looks like a very well-thought-out setup. It's interesting that "bouncing against the rev limiter" is a feature in sport mode. I suppose if anything, it would remind the driver of which mode he's driving in.

I will miss the actual physical beauty and physical satisfaction of sliding the stick from one gear to another but time does march on.

Thanks!

 

Your posting looks a lot easier to read now. It's still very long and you ask many questions... there are no doubt interesting ones which I can learn from. Some don't seem too complicated but even short questions can sometimes require a long response to properly answer.

I am still preparing my taxes but will give you proper replies. I have 3 tax returns to submit next week. I will likely divide up my response into multiple replies to make them manageable. You'll have to be patient.

Actually, posting this thread kind of reminds me of the time when I showed up in my new hot ride. First thing my girlfriend said was "so, is everyone now pulling up to challenge you to race?".

...which brings me to something I mentioned to Vincent in an earlier post:

 

Vincent, I said I would explain a bit more about this thread when I finished some of my weekend projects. I still have to cut down and re-hang wheel storage racks in my garage tonight - can't find my cutting fluid for some reason???

I had said "My impression is that many of the trolls and hecklers actually share the very same motives I have for buying my Ferrari".

So after 12 years, I needed a new car and decided to buy a Maserati because I wasn't impressed by the current offerings from BMW. I told my Maserati salesman I wanted something that delivers "a sense of occasion" every time I drive it. After looking over and test driving 3 vehicles, my Maserati appointment turned into a Ferrari one. My "N button thread" came as a result of my being fascinated with Ferraris.

What's this got to do with trolls and hecklers? In a word, BOREDOM. I was bored with my normal selection of cars and wanted a stimulating ride. Trolls and hecklers are bored with themselves and have nothing better to do with themselves. Unfortunately, rather than to work on a more stimulating car experience, they prefer to post silly messages to try and provoke people to get a few laughs. But unfortunately for them, I prefer British humour.

So this thread to has to do with boredom and how people deal with it, good or bad.

I deal with it by becoming fascinated by the Ferrari experience. Maybe some of the trolls and hecklers should redirect their boredom and turn their "skills" into a standup comic routine.

...off to the garage!

 

Wow, I nearly missed this tome.

Constantinos, you need to get a life. This thread is not about you or even about other F-Chatters. It's about my wanting some extra and more convenient control of the transmission.

I remain loyal to my Canadian driver's handbooks. You are wasting your time, I won't budge on that one, ever... because I have put the maneuver to the test many times and it works wonderfully.

Have a nice evening!

 

you think it was that maneuver that saved you. You carry on with this thread trying to prove something that just isn't true.

It went from F1 drivers using the N button to save a spin to everyday drivers using neutral in order to save a spin(/ some stuff about hitting black ice) and now it's about controlling the transmission. You have that control by pulling the two paddles, how does a button give you more control? It gives you another way to access that control, but it doesn't give you any more control. At least for me, taking my eyes off the road to see where a button is at that moment and taking my hand off the steering wheel to hit it is not more convenient than just pulling back on two paddles that do not move.

you've spent days on this thread. I've spent about 40 minutes on it. 5 the other day when I first saw it and laughed it off as something that would die quickly and 35 min today having a ball reading through it and laughing some more.

My favorite parts were when you pointed out that people were non-owners, then seeing that you don't even have any first hand experience with your incoming f-car yet. Thanks for some evening entertainment. I certainly know it's not about me, but you're just too predictable.

 

Here's a thought. Please point out to us where selecting neutral or disengaging the clutch is used to control this car.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo5wDmJGYGo]Ayrton Senna NSX R - Full Onboard - YouTube[/ame]

 

I could watch that footage a million times. Senna was the master. Wonderful example of throttle steering, the way he counter steers, and modulates the throttle.

 

I'm starting to think this guy doesn't really have a Cali on order. Does anyone here actually know him?

 

From what I hear he has a lot of friends at the Canadian Department of Motor Vehicles

 

An interesting and valid question... albeit with some misunderstanding on your part.

First of all, if you've read the full thread and digested the discussion from me you'll understand this maneuver only applies when the rear tires have already lost traction and vehicle speeds are at least still within North American speed limits on public roads (<100kph/62 mph).

Where there is marginal traction remaining in the rear tires the driver should modulate throttle and steer instead of going to neutral. With speeds higher than indicated, there will likely be too little time and road to try recovering via the use of neutral.

Senna's video shows approx. 2 laps of the Suzuka track in an Accura NSXR... extremely well-driven. He did make steering corrections but experienced no loss of traction so there was never any need to engage neutral. All the corners, less one, would have been too fast at the speeds he was capable of in the NSXR.

However, as you requested, please refer to video sequences at 0:59 and 2:34 (same corner twice) to see where if a driver like Senna (or slower than Senna) were to lose traction, going to neutral is a possible recovery maneuver. Based on my observation of Senna's speed along the course, there were no other applicable locations I could see on this circuit unless the drivers were to go very slow and drive lesser vehicles (without traction control) on this course, or under more slippery conditions.

Here's the SUZUKA CIRCUIT (note highlighted hairpin)

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Here's a photo showing an NSX dash - note red indicator which I use to indicate slowest Senna's speed... approx. 80 kph). This corresponds to speed indicated on Suzuka circuit diagram and speedometer in your video.

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...have to get back to work now. Enjoy.

 

I strongly suspect he wrote those Canadian driver's manuals. Or at least it was somebody with the same uneducated understanding, probably in a government cubicle, probably with some very limited "consultation" from a few others in the office who proclaimed proficiency.

Dear OP,

You may be shocked by what I'm about to say, since nobody else has said it. Yes, I can see than in some very limited situations, under a very limited set of circumstances relating to the vehicle's dynamics, declutching or selecting neutral might help recover from a spin that's partially developed.

What I think most everybody else is saying, but haven't yet put into the right words for you to grasp, is that there is a better, more desirable method. You want to let the rear tires freewheel so that they might might match their rotation easily to whatever surface is sliding under them, right? Well, good throttle modulation accomplishes the same thing. I mean once you're pointed 90 degrees to your track, neither one is going to matter. But in that 10 - 30 degree range where you've got a chance to save it, proper throttle control can achieve what you're looking for, without giving up the ability to also adjust for future changes that may be required during the next 1/4 second as popping into neutral must necessarily do.

And I think what other people are pointing out, also without making it clear to you, is that in a much wider range of situations and circumstances relating to the vehicle's dynamics, popping into neutral is likely to make things worse.

Also, despite your civil manner, you've derided one poster for using the word "drift" by defining it as controlled throttle-on oversteer, and then used the word "drift" yourself to describe understeering to the outside of a turn. You've mangled the terminology of physics from the start; a spin does not introduce any new energy into the system, slowing down at a reduced rate is not an acceleration even if your comparing it to slowing down at a quicker rate, etc. Nobody who wants to go fast ever "rides" the clutch; they're either trying to speed up or trying to slow down. Actually I'm impressed that this thread has remained as civil as it has, with only a few posters having called you something derogatory, and even then nothing very strong.

My background is not as impressive as a few of the other posters here, but I majored in aerospace engineering, started tracking my Exige seven years ago, became an HPDE instructor three years ago, and been racing the 24-hrs-of-Lemons (where there is plenty of oil dropped on the track) since 2007. If you watched that Senna NSXR video and don't think he was ever below 100% traction, then saying you are ignorant on the matter is an understatement. If you're saying he never went all the way to zero percent traction, then of course you're right, but if you literally have zero or almost zero percent traction as you might if you drove through a patch of oil, then no driver input is going to fix that except getting out and cleaning the oil off your tires.

xtn