250 LM #6053

I am updating the barchetta pages on this car.There are a lot of race results missing particularly for 1967 which I have been able to locate. At the end of 1967 the car was "scrapped"[why?] and the chassis used to rebuild #6167. Except for one photo of the car at Lourenco Marques in December of 1967 and another of a nice scale model of the car at L.M. I have been unable to locate any other photos. Anyone like to share some? Acording to M.M. a car using s/n 6053 is in the "Far East" however there is no plate on the chassis with any s/n stamp.Aparently the remains of 6053 were discarded at a shop in Modena when the car was. " scrapped" and presumably later rebuilt and ended up in Japan in the mid 1990s.Anyway if anyone would like to comment and has pictures, particularly from the 1960s, please post.. Thanks much. tongascrew

 

Tongascrew

I dont have any actual info but I wanted to ty and ask the question of why would a clapped out wreck of a Ferrari, not even a particularly rare F-car, have been stored through 1967 - 1990's. I have taken much from Bannishg's post about car prices circa 1960's and 1970's and you have to wonder why you would rebuild a car when it had such little financial value and you could have either parted it out or scrapped it. And simply bought one in a better condition. I mean why ?. Some photo's of the car as found pre rebuild and Japan would be great too.

Happy car sleuthing, hope you do find out some useful information and get some photo's.

Cheers
Tim

 

^^^^. Only 32 250 LM cars were made so it's even rarer than a 250 GTO. It's also a model that won Le Mans outright in 1965 (NART, Rindt/Gregory #5893) and the last Ferrari to win that race. I think they are quite valuable, lol!! The 250 LM is one of the most fantastic cars ever made.

 

exactly!
also one of the most attractive from that era

 

Rarer...and more challenging to drive. These were not street cars by any stretch. Video found on a random search.

Ferrari 250 LM circuit lap from passenger seat - YouTube

 

Chuck Queener, Jane Dusek and others would dispute that.

 

Tongascrew,
I have found quite a few bits of info and pictures missing from barchetta. Some of which i think i can supply. How can i go about providing them or you with that info for updating? Is there a way i can do it. How can i help update the site. Id LOVE to help!

 

Great video. There was more to these cars than just putting a roof on an early P series car and calling it a production road car developed from the 250 GTO. The FIA didn't buy it nor, one could say, did the car itself. The number of crashes, rebuilds and other incidents by these cars probably exceed any other series Ferrari per unit built. Only the very best of the competition drivers were able to controle these machines at competitive racing speed. The rest probably should never should have left the pits. This video is a good example. The Barchetta pages on 6053 are OK for 1965. 1966 except for two events is nonexistant and 1967 lists only half the events entered. Plus there is only one photo I could find of the car iits entire history and not much good info from 1967 on. Help. Thanks tongascrew

 

Chuck agrees that the car is not nearly as easy to drive and forgiving as the GTO Chuck spent a summer driving Keeney's and spent about 10 weeks with Epstien's.

The driver in the video is doing touring quality laps.

Jeff

 

Could this be the main reason the 250 GTO is valued a lot more highly than the 250 LM?

 

It's a wife deal...
SHE can drive a GTO-forget the LM!
Just getting in and out is a task most ladies find "unflattering"

Since I've heard husbands confess that they sold their love-an LM- and up ticked for the GTO for this reason is pretty clear...

 

I would say there are a lot of reasons.

A GTO is not as prone to bit an average level driver.
The GTO is the iconic front engined GT racer
The GTO was an all conquering GT racer of its time - the LM won LeMans virtually as a fluke
Some really, really like the appearance of the Series 1 GTO
A GTO has more of a direct connection to the GT street Ferraris while the LM is more of a P car
LM is a crash box with only a few LH drives
An LM passenger has no foot space
The LM was not homologated for the GT class until the rules changed and they were already obsolete

An LM is still a spectacular car that does have a very different aesthetic by being mid-engined. It was designed by Pf (as was the Series 2 GTO) while the Series 1 GTO was an in-house creation. In many ways the LM represented the changing of the guard and although streetable it takes a masochistic streak to want endure it.

An interesting question would be what would the desirability of the 275GTB comps like Henn's be if they had been a serious GT effort by the factory? Would they be valued to the same level as a GTO? Would they have dominated the FIA Cobras in all the big international races?

Jeff

 

Ride as a passenger in an LM and wonder where to put your feet. One cannot stretch forward as the foot well is only wide enough for 3 pedals and the dead pedal.

Jeff

 

A few points, looking through historical value's the GTO and the LM have always been similarly valued until the first surge in the 1980's where the GTO surged ahead of everything else. But scarcity does not equate value, it does either add to it or subtract depending on whether it is scarce for a reason. It can be argued that the GTO or the SWB Comp/61 or even the Tour de France was the last true Ferrari that you could win on the track and drive home in.

I would add Phil Hill could, hell even some B grade racers could but you might stretch it to find many general drivers that could in circa 1965 specifications. I would guess today you can fit better suspension components, modern tires and all sorts of modifications to make it better streetable if you were so keen but that isnt the point. When it comes to absolute top end value I can do no better than to quote from Thor Thorson in Sports Car Market (he looks after cars for such collector/ racers as Shirley/ McCaw etc)

He splits value into useability and collectability which have two different sets of worth and two different use's. When it comes to useability the GTO is the ultimate, it is rare, it is very widely known, and it can be used in almost every event EXCEPT the Mille Miglia. And a lot of buyers value a car based on what you can do with it, Colorado grand (tick) Targa Florio (tick) and most road racing Ferraris from pre - GTO can be used on these events, Grand Prix cars cannot. Where as for a comparison the W196 Mercedes up for sale COULD be used, but really where ?, when ?, how? etc. And then you have collectability, again a 250GTO would be collectable, hell you dont have to use it, you can just look at it. And it would still increase in value. You could effectively argue that 90% of the value of a car like the Benz GP car is all in its collecatbility rather than any useability.

So back to the 250 Le Mans what do you think, IMO

- Streetable (barely)
- Valuable (not in the same class as the GTO)
- Useability (more racer than GT, and some events will have the LM up against Ford GT40s)
- Rarity (tick, but is it rare due to lack of sales when new ?)
- Spec (best of the Road/ Racing ferrari's)

So all in all I reckon you can see why a 250LM would sell for $5 - 15 million as compared to a GTO at $25 million and up......

Courtesy of Bannishg's post golden age selling for a bit of historic referencing

1966 - (s/n unknown) $8000 (car in Belguim)
1968 - (s/n unknown) $10,500
1969 - s/n 6173 asking $7900 (like new)
1971 - (s/n unknown but blue/black) $8900
1971 - (s/n unknown) 2 cars @ $11,000 and $14,700
1972 - (s/n unknown but street modded) $11500 (Excellent)
1975 - (s/n unknown) $25000
1975 - (s/n unknown but ex NART) $38000
1976 - (s/n unknown) $35000
1977 - #5897 $55,000 (ready to race)
1978 - (s/n unknown) $47000
1981 - #5899 $160000 (Restored)

So at those values would anyone have really restored a terrible 250LM prior to the late 1970s and just how common was keeping wrecks for 10+ years, when they were worth zip. Versus the all too common route of just building a replica in Italy and claiming an "unused" serial number. Look what I found outside........

 

Jeff- Was it touring quality when he spun her?

250 LM is my favorite Ferrari. Even if the dog clutch transmission would take a bit of work to get correct.

Great video and the 250 LM definitely sounded like a race car. Gear noise, whistling, 12 cylinder roar and whine all sounded perfect.

 

At least this thread should have one photo: Zeltweg 1966 with Parkes. Copyright unknown.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Great photo and my favorite short nose version. Black LM in the background. Whose was that?

 

#5907 with David Hobbs.

 

Great posts by everybody. The 250LM is still, in my opinion, the very best looking Ferrari of all time.

I haven't driven either a 250 LM or a GTO. But I have driven crash gearboxes and finicky mid-engined cars, and I can understand where a GTO would be a lot nicer.

But for looks alone, the LM has my heart.

Matt

 

Ok is it me or does it look like he is trying to break into that car......

 

......Mike was just psyching himself up to drive it as if he stole it i.e very fast!!!

 

Matt Stone editor of Motor Trend Classic once asked me why a Cobra Daytona Coupe, a car that beat the GTO in 1965, was only worth a third of a 250 GTO. I asked him if he had ever driven either and I have. Anyone who has been lucky enough to have had that opportunity would have no trouble answering the question.

The LM is a different animal. The gear box never bothered me in traffic but you had to pick your roads and time of travel. The chap in the video let the LM get ahead of him. He didn't put the clutch in soon enough, if at all, I'll look at it again but he seemed surprised.

Many years ago at the Monterey Historics Brit Willie Green drove Lou Selyie's LM. Steve Earle, the event's founder, put Willie at the back of the GT-car grid and he won the race. It's still a great car and the video only hints at the sound in the cockpit. That will get the adrenaline flowing!

CQ

 

The collectability and usability points make sense. However, you are forgetting one big thing. Ferrari is all about passion. These cars were bought by people who were extremely passionate about them, and with good reason. They bought them with their hearts and not their heads. They were beautiful to look at, fast, sounded fantastic, exciting, glamorous, won important races. They took people's breath away and were the most desirable cars in the world, and that hasn't changed. It was just an amazing time when they could have been bought a lot more affordably, but far from cheaply and not 'zip', as those prices were still a lot to pay for cars in the sixties and seventies. Nick Mason was accused of being on the wacky backy when he paid £37,000 for his 250 GTO in 1977. They were just different times.

 

I will never argue that the love for old cars is about passion, good ole boys spend their time dreaming of camaro's and stangs, while we do the same with old Italian cars. What I learnt a while ago was that the number of shall we say lesser cars that come out of Italy, and occasionaly the UK, where how shal we put it the justice system is a little different to the states was substantial. Sometimes rather interesting cases of oh I found a xxx special that was based on a xxxx chassis that was stored in 1953 or was it 1965. And when you get to the bottom of it, how much actual Ferrari was in it.

There are entire workshops in Italy that during the 1980's and 1990's were making replica Alfa GTA's, GTAM's, Tipo 33's, Porsche 550's, Ferrari's and more. Basically anything with a tubular spaceframe or other appropriately cheap to build up frame that can be made to look original. Even the classics such as 8C Alfa's or Mercedes SSK's which had a value sufficient to make creating a replica worthwhile business, where suddenly mysteriously found and then, hey presto, look what I have........... And prior to the internet era these events were so much easier since information was not easily shareable.

And the burnt out wreck of a 250 LM, I would easily understand if it was directly converted into a racing special and continued racing ala #5899 only to later be re - restored using whatever of the original was left back into a 250LM. That would be fair enough because it would give a salient reason to have retained the car in whatever shape it was in for so long. I just dont see anyone keeping a wreck for so long when it probably had nil value. No matter how cool it is today, the mindset of a 1960s racer would likely have been to replace it with a new one, baring in mind the Porsche 906, 907, Ferrari 330P2/3, 412 or even Lola T70/ McLaren M1 let alone another Ferrari 250LM were not super expensive, and ditch the wreck, surely ?

 

The 250 LM in the video appears to be #5149, by its unique dashboard.