MP4 prices are really plummeting on resale

The stupid door was one thing that stopped me considering one. In a non private garage With other cars next to you, where I park my Spider, it would not be possible to get into or out of the car.

That aside, it is a brilliant machine manufactured by a great company with a nearly unparalleled knowledge of mechanics but not soul or marketing. They will certainly survive but they will need money. A lot.

 

I follow the mclaren life board as well--under same handle.

I think the problem that mclaren has is actually a very simple one--and this, paradoxically makes it the hardest: marketing to the right group of buyer.

The f1 car created a false sense of comfort within McLaren's psyche. The car came out when there was no Internet, no rapid and rabid fans discussing every minute and every detail. The agenda was forwarded by the print media of the time as well.

Now we've got such boards as fchat, youtube, blogs, etc., as such: every joe has an opinion and if he or Jane utilizes these former platforms correctly--they can make an affective impact on the company's bottom line. And in the P11's case: they have!!

Mclaren needs to pretend that the 2012 didn't happen--from a marketing point of view.

Create a brand and lifestyle -- something that ferrari has certainly created. If they don't. It won't sell in the thousands (cars). I'm typing on ipad. But I think you're smart enough to deduce

 

I'm sorry but I disagree with you. The usual excuse is "well, Ferrari has had more time" or "its a lack of marketing".

You make it sound like it's the consumers fault that they aren't smart enough to see the brilliance of the machine. Maybe instead it was just a poor business plan?

In fact, what you're seeing is 1) supply and demand at work and 2) a poorly executed business model that forced too many cars into the market.


The problem is not the car or the how stupid consumers are to keep buying Ferrari's or Porsches instead of it. It's that McLaren set out an overly aggressive plan to make and ship cars to the US.

If they destroyed 1/2 of the Mp4's in the US tomorrow, or put a moratorium on new car sales until 2012's cleared out, resale values would go up immediately. INSTEAD, dealers are offering huge discounts on NEW sales and adding even more cars into the market. And you're surprised that resale value goes down?

The HAVE marketed to the right group of buyers. There's just a lot less of them out there than they want to admit.


If you go back to what I said back 3 years ago, I said moving to the US market so quickly was a big mistake for them. They needed to sort the car out in the UK first, move to continental Europe, and then introduce it in the US KNOWING by that time what the potential for the car was. Instead, they proceeded to divide their resources up and do an international launch. Is it any wonder they had a lack of marketing support with an approach like that?

And, where is this "lack of marketing"? They had car shows and events across the country at dealers and car shows. It's been in every car trade magazine and on TV car reviews. It's been on morning talk shows. It's all over the internet. It's been at Monterey. It's been in the WSJ and NY Times. They have a great website (much better than Ferrari). What more do you want? A TV ad on the Super Bowl? It's quarter million dollar car. You don't sell these on TV like a Chevy.

The business plan from Woking seems more like "if we build it, they will come" instead of based on real numbers. There's only so many who will be willing to take a leap of faith on a new car and a new supplier at $250K.

Honestly, if you look at it that way, they've done remarkably well.

They just shipped too many. Why did they? I think they had to. Their financial requirements were too great for the investment.

The result? They've taken a great car and a great potential and screwed it. How many of the early adopters will go back next time after losing 70K in value in one year?

Early adopters are your biggest fans and most important customers... and McLaren tossed them away by not paying attention to the market. The "free" increase in HP was a gift to try to kiss and make up. Nice attempt and admirable, but not enough to help sagging sales.

People think I'm anti-McLaren. In fact, I'm the exact opposite. By stating what needs to be said instead of making excuses is the only way to get out this mess.

I wish more Mac owners took a tougher and honest tact because heaven knows, they won't listen to anyone here.

 

1) Buy an F12
2) Drive it 5K miles in a year
3) Trade it in

A 70K hit will seem like a bargain

 

Bob, there will be about 10 2013 Coupes coming into the USA and less than 400 Spiders. Once the existing (about 8-12 2012 Coupes left with 9 dealers) are exhausted, there will be no more Coupes unless specially ordered. Lets wait and see what happens in the next few years. Remember the FORD GT? They made over 4000+ there will be a total of 600 Coupes in the USA.

 

Maybe, maybe not.

But, let's stick to apples and apples here.

Someone who bought a 458 after one year lost zero.

Someone who bought the 12c lost 70.



Did it have to happen? NO. That is the point.

 

Yes, I heard they are holding back on 13's. But, my issue is they should have been on top of this a long time ago before the damage was done.

It was poor planning and over production that got them into this. That's NOT the fault of the consumers, as many excusers want to say:

"The problem is not McLaren: It's those stupid Ferrari owners who just keep buying because it's a "Ferrari"!"

The problem is not consumers. It's Woking.

There's nothing wrong with this car (performance is great). There was nothing wrong with it's pricing (it's a great value vs 458). There's nothing wrong with the McLaren brand or image.

They just made and shipped too many cars for the market. TOTALLY avoidable.

 

I blame some of this on its looks....it is just plain and boring looking.

Also, the dealer network is stupid and not well thought out......Houston, USAs 4th largest metro, lots of money, lots of exotics, no dealer...

 

There was an eerie coincindence in the auto business recently; Fisker - albeit the opposite end of the automotive spectrum from McLaren - had massive financial problems announced. The eerie part was that they had sold 2,000 cars, with about 40 worldwide dealers, and couldn't make their financials work.
Interesting to me in that I thought of McLaren immediately when I heard the Fisker news.
That's all...
Kevn

 

That's it. Plus overproduction. It's neither as elegant as the old F1 nor is it as spectacular as a Ferrari or a Lambo. It's kind of a NSX and that's how people react when they see Ferraris, Lambos and McLarens side by side. I had the opportunity to watch this behavior of lots of people passing theses cars some time ago. The McLaren (Spider) was completely ignored in comparison to 360/430/458 and Diablo/Gallardo/Murcielago/Aventador. In my opinion they need an all new design to succeed.

 

There is something wrong with the overall package if they can't sell all the cars they produce. Ferrari can. Why can't McLaren?

It's not overproduction. Something is missing from the product itself.
Looks-wise, it's boring. But that's my opinion.
Overall packaging. Too conventional. Again, just my opinion.
Price point, too high for what it is. In my opinion.
Really, though, I don't like the techno wizardry. It's too visible. I like to feel I am in control while the gimmicks stay out of sight. I don't want lots of screens. I want dials. I don't want blips and beeps, I want growling, snarling that I can tame. To me it's the excitement that's missing. No engine roar (kinda sorta begins to make an appearance at 140+ but on US roads, that's just begging to be taken to jail). A McLaren quietly does its thing with no effort required. It's an appliance, not an excitement generator, no mastery required. It might as well be fast Mercedes with less seats, less ground clearance, less visibility out of the cockpit, less room, less comfort, for a lot more money. Again, that's my opinion only.

Someone needs to do a study of Ferrari owners. Invite them to discuss their candid opinion why they wouldn't or didn't buy a McLaren at the same or similar price point.

I suspect it's poor positioning in the market (price point, performance and utility), the lack of branding/brand image, and poor or virtually no promotion. There is no community or sense of involvement. And the product is something that the performance buyer is not seeking. It's a polished Skyline GTR. No one really knows or will know unless people who matter (actual potential customers) are asked.

The other thing McLaren needs to do is ask actual buyers why they did buy. Then figure out how to appeal to that market segment better, or appeal to different segments. The existing pool of actual buyers is not large enough.

From analyzing 1,000 or 10,000 opinions, a glimmer of truth or insight might begin to emerge.

 

Without getting into how many they could sell, its the product. Ferrari can get by with a somewhat bland drivi ng experience on the street because its a ferrari and they still excit on track.

I drove the Mp12. Its spec and layout is interesting. maybe thye could improve the goofy face but the rest of the car styling is just fine.

What lacks is the driving experience. the motor is not particularily smooth. However you want to spell it there is turbo lag and non linear accleration. Yes of these things you can try mask with paddle shift as BMW does witht he new M5 but its there. The sound of the motor, like a porche 911 at idle which is enticing, but then on its just a tuneless blare. The suspension sounds like a great idea, but it feels eerily non connected.

A technicaly great car, short on passion, I think they missed the point as to why one buys an exotic. I mean what does this car do that a GTR does not. Other than looks you basicaly have a GTR. Techno perfect does not an exotic make.Rawness drama and excitement, look at the aventador.

The F1 was epic in steering feel, power sound, other than power spec the mp12 lacks all the other attributes. what the F1 was which made it so special was measured and linear in all its responses, a car of exact responses. The MP12 lacks these attributes almost entirely.

Some of the euopeans also seem to have this focus on fuel efficiency carbon emissions etc. No one who buys an exotic or powerful car gives a crap. So saying the mp12 has good fuel economy as a sales feature is near irrelevant.

They have great bones there, they just need to refocus on what exotic buyers want.

BTW mercedes would do well to scrap the engine cutoout at stoplights, thats fine for a diesel not an amg sl. These things are not sales features here, they ARE DETRACTIONS.

So Mclaren change the front end styling. Get rid of the turbos, or else supercharge it, or turbosupercharge it like vw does with some golfs, power response sound drama for pwertrain. Turn up the wick to 650 hp. Develop a buttoned down suspension not that weird floaty thing, put in real steering feel. The you will blow ferrari away and get some more buyers.

 

Boxerman,
well said. It's just not exciting. I also agree that the styling is mostly fine except for the front end. I do think the fins at the back are dated. That needs to be changed out too, IMO.

 

Have you driven an F1?

 

Lots of negativity out there about the car, which I guess tells a lot, but then again this is a Ferrari "lifestyle" forum. In an odd coincidence, a good friend and I just bought a 2012 458 and 2012 McLaren within the last few weeks (both new), and he has driven mine, but I have not yet had a chance to drive the 458. I'll reserve any personal comparisons until I get a chance to drive his car.

His comments were that the McLaren felt more powerful and lighter, perhaps more nimble. He obviously prefers the looks and sound of the 458, and thought the gadgetry in the McLaren was both excessive and did not work as well as it should. The McLaren doors are dramatic but very impractical, as it is harder to get in and out of than the 458 and you are in big trouble if someone parks close. He was in general pretty complimentary about the car, but he probably did not want to tell a friend he just bought a POS.

I don't personally get the "soul" and subjective comments - and I'd consider a GTR if they were not so portly, as I do appreciate the objective performance of the GTR, but put it on track and the weight will take a big toll on tires, brakes and cooling.

My reasons for buying the McLaren are as follows, not necessarily in order:

1. Weight - I race cars, have and Elise, and the 200 lb or so weight advantage over the 458 is to me significant.

2. Power - 616 hp as opposed to 562 hp is significant to me. I like power.

3. Materials. I found the carbon fiber tub to be more "modern" than an aluminum space-frame.

4. Price - the McLaren is probably $65K or so less expensive and for some reason I am willing to pay on the order of $220K for an exotic car, but I won't pay north of $275K. An arbitrary line and it kept me out of both cars until the McLaren price dropped. I do think McLaren is dreaming right now if they think they can sell many cars at the same price as the 458.

5. Dealer experience - I live in Dallas; my personal experience and that of my freinds is that I simply cannot get a 458 as a first time new Ferrari buyer from the dealer (at least not quickly and/or at sticker price); I also am hesitant to bring in a car from another dealer for service. Everyone I know with 458s are repeat customers, and most spent signifcant money on Maseratis and/or used Ferraris to get into the fold. I really have felt like a red-headed stepchild in the Ferrari showroom, as if I have to prove myslef by paying over sticker and/or buying multiple products and that rubs me the wrong way. The McLaren Dealer was easy, treated me well, and I got a great deal. I am sure this is in part driven by the lesser demand for the product.

6. Iconoclasm - I own 2 older Ferraris and love them - Ferraris are almost always beautiful, lovely to drive, and sound great. But my word there is a lot of cognitive dissonance in Ferrari owners, as if they convince themselves of the superiority of the car and the brand because they paid so much for it. When you challenge the wisdom of a Ferrari owner, the rebuttal is almost always tied to subjective and conclusory words like "soul", and "feel." A part of me just won't pay more for less objective performance and being blessed with 2 Ferraris I did not feel the need to own another for no real reason other than it is a Ferrari.

I saw a lot of this kind of thing when the 2005 Lotus Elise landed. By 2006 the year-old cars were worth probably 25% less than new. For Lotus, I think the reason was abundant supply, and the poseurs realized that the car was not practical, girlfriends and wives hated getting in and out of it, and it was no longer the "new" thing. I think a 2005 Elise has depreciated maybe another 10% in the 7 years since 2006. None of it bothered me, because I have lost nothing on my Elise (did not sell it), and it continues to offer a unique driving experience unavailable in any other car (e.g. sub 2000 lb curb weight and no power assist on steering).

I suspect the abundant supply of 2102 McLarens, the fact that it is in many ways impractical (the doors are dramatic but not the best for fatass middle-aged americans) and the infotainment system is pretty wonky, and it is just not the new thing and no one knows what it is so not sufficiently impressive for the poseur element have conspired to drive prices down hard.

On the other hand, I think that a more focused groupd of enthusiasts may get into the McLaren for the longer term, keep the cars and the market stabilize.

Who knows? I bough the car to drive and drive it I shall.

 

I haven't driven the new McLaren, but a guy here in town has offered me a drive in his, I just haven't gotten back to him yet.

I do have a time in the F1, including track time. Without having driven an MP12, I'm still willing to bet your dead-wrong in your assertion. Yes, the F1 is a great car, but I don't doubt the MP 12 is better.

 

everyone is talking about the 70k people are losing on new Macs but realistically if you have to buy a Maserati or two or a used Fcar or two before your dealership gives you the privilege of ordering a 458 which you then have to wait possibly years for isn't the 70k loss kind of a bargain or at least comparable? I'm not saying that a 70k loss on a new exotic is not an issue, but the cost of admission is no greater than the cost of admission to owning a new ferrari when you consider the hoops Ferrari makes you jump through in certain markets.

 

I think you're talking apples and oranges here. And, there have been several here who have bought a 458 as their first Ferrari. If you want an early one -- yes. If you want one you can get one. Aside from the Scud crash with the economic crash, you don't lose that much on a new 2 seat sports car in one year (I also blame Ferrari for that one for shipping too many cars).

The point is that this new company has established a bad precedent. Anyone who looks at a new car has to assume he's going to take that hit -- and its going to be a factor in his future purchasing decision. They have some rebuilding to do. Can they? Yes -- but with some pain on their side.

My point is that it didn't have to be this way. This WAS controllable, unlike some economic turmoil or a kind of odd ball event like 9-11 or a natural disaster. Someone pushed the throttle down hard when they should have hit the brake.

Their loyal customers paid for that mistake-- and the bottom still hasn't been reached yet. That's the scary part.

 

I hope they continue to crash so i can afford one!

 

I think there is some hindsight here - what was the production number McLaren should have anticipated to sell of 2012 models at the time they were planning production and acquiring materials and inventory? What is the difference between actual and that number? How far off in percentage or number of units do you think they were? What is the ratio of 458 and MP4 production for the 2012 model year? Finally, does it make business sense to build the MP4 in the first place at the number of units you say should have been built (e.g. do the revenues offer a return of investment and any profit upside if production is kept low for early adopters' secondary market value).

I agree that the secondary market value has got to hurt the early adopters, but I think the silver lining is that more folks are going to jump in and keep the car now. Plus the ones hurt the most are those who are either ending McLaren ownership or selling to get a Spider. The former are probaby not "loyal," and the latter probably were willing to pay the high premium to get the Spider or they'd have kept the coupe and waited a bit longer form the Spider. As I think you commented, at the $200-220K level the MP4 is a huge bargain. Objectively, it has 458-beating performance for 20% or more less money. It is going to get a guy like me in the car; a guy who will drive it all over the place, rain or shine, on track, grocery store, that kind of thing and maybe get McLaren more visibility.

A problem McLaren now has is the P13. Where to put it in terms of price and performance? I think MP4 (P11) cars are headed to $180K-ish over the next year, maybe lower, and who is going to buy a P11 for $160+, which is where I think they have to stick the P13? And if they make the P13 too fast, who is going to buy a MP4 for $275-300K?

Maybe McLaren really can reduce production enough to keep prices high, but Ferrari has the luxury of being able to sell what, about 4400 458s per year? I don't think McLaren made more than about 1700 2012 MP4s, but valid production data seems hard to come by. I just have to doubt that producing many fewer cars per year makes producing any cars at all viable.

At the end of the day, I think McLaren underestimated the Ferrari panche and cachet and McLaren rushed the MP4 into production without all systems being fully "go." In my short ownership, I have found that most people don't know what it is and have no knowledge of any of the factors that made me conclude that it is better than a 458. The wealthy buyer looking for a trophy that everyone knows what it is and how great it goes may have been disappointed by the same experience over the last year. Combine that with annoying crap like a nav and audio system that often just doensn't F'ing work and I can see the buyer dumping the car.

The MP4 would have had to crush the 458 in all the instrumented tests and it just did not. I bet it would now with the updates, but McLaren is not going to get the press to give it a "do over." I also think the market for $250K+ exotics is pretty darned crowded and Ferrari is clearly king, with Lambo, McLaren and maybe even Audi roughing one another up a bit competing for the same demographic.

Another irony: It seems buyers don't want the inherently muted twin turbo sound and supposed turbo lag. But what about the F40?

 

I am very jealous - I'd love some real F1 seat time. But I would not be surprised to find the relentless passage of time has made the legend better to anticipate than experience. I can safely say the F40 is not the car a Z06 is; which is not to say the F40 is not a great event and experience.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRCWbFFRpnY]Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine - YouTube[/ame]

 

But the F40 is a good friend of mine!

 

When I drove the 12c, it wasn't actually the noise that sort of disappointed me after the 458. It was the sense of a lack of "urgency" in it's tone. But I don't think it's the reason people haven't bought more. If you drove this car without driving a 458, you would think it's exhaust was excellent.

The most people I talk to about the car like the technology, specs, performance, etc... but they worry about resale and the niggling things such as the door entry, the Nav/Radio, and the that dealers are far away scare many off. There's quite a few who would be interested in owning one in Vegas but the idea of trucking it to Newport at every check engine light or yearly service just turns them off.

There's no one factor I believe. It's many.

But, the car itself is well respected, as is the firm of McLaren.

There's just not enough people out there who want a car in this price category. I think they'll have a lot more success at $130k with a 911 fighter, but the new Porsche Cayman is a darn good car for the money. I saw it at the LA auto show and I was impressed.

The needle just keeps moving.

 

I have driven the F1 at length as well. I would have one, but I think it's obscene to spend that kind of money on a car when you could do other things with it that give you satisfaction in other ways. Of course, in retrospect, this thinking was flawed, as the car has appreciated handsomely!

With the F1, you are at one with the machine once you understand its rifle shifter and steering and brake and suspension responses. Its level of involvement is superb. The MP4 does feel involving at all. It just goes, like any automatic car. For me, the turn-off was the lack of driver involvement. I want to get out of a car with my heart thumping, not relaxed and bored and fiddling with my phone.

The relatively boring styling at the front and rear were the next most-significant reasons I rejected the car.

With the march of technology, a Carrera GT can wipe the floor with a McLaren F1, at half the MSRP, or at one-tenth the real-world price. It's not about price, I guess, though that consideration does come into play at different levels for different people. For cars in the same price bracket, it's about excitement, which, along with looks, dictates appeal.

I have never cared about dealer proximity, but I can see that being a consideration as well.