Roof Failure!

Today when I opened the roof, the trunk popped open fine, I think the rear window folded onto the roof okay, but then the whole roof assembly CRAWLED back into the trunk. Hmmm...

So I went for a blast up and down Turnbull Canyon road a couple of times. Great drive, sunny, 95 degrees, all is right with the world.

Got home and closed the roof. The trunk opened fine. The roof assembly CRAWLED out of the trunk and then when it was about six or eight inches from the windshield it just dropped onto the pins with a hell of a bang. The windows went up and then everything stopped with a "roof failure" indication on the TFT. I let go of the roof switch and the TFT indicated "complete roof cycle". So I pushed the close switch again and it lowered the windows, folded the back window into place okay and raised the windows again. Guess I got a problem that needs looking at. Damn!

 

You can either reboot the roof mechanism by opening the driver side door and lowering and raising the windows or just go to your dealer. This has happened to me before. It's a pain but also an easy fix.

 

If you take your car in to have it checked out, there is a "Service Campaign 78" which you'll want to see if your car needs to have performed. It has something to do with a clamp for a pump on the roof's hydraulics. Good luck and I hope this doesn't become recurring. I've not had this type of problem.

 

I believe running the metal folding roof mechanism uses a fair amount of power. From your description, the problem seems to be in the raising and placement of the roof panels. The motor that carries the weight of the panels may draw more current than the other units. Aside from a defective motor or something wrong with the mechanism, insufficient current would seem to be the only other obvious source of problem.

Normally, one would test the battery for voltage and capacity but I believe the California's battery is tucked away in the engine compartment, below the air intakes. If the dealer is close by it would be easier to have them check the battery for you.

From my experience, whenever I plug in my battery tender, it takes a few hours before the charger indicates a full recharge, which means the car's charging system hasn't actually kept up with the draw on the battery since I last recharged it and I recharge the battery every day.

Seeing that it's the weekend, if you haven't been using the battery tender I would attach it to your car and see how long it takes to fully recharge the battery. From my experience with other cars, depending on the state of the battery it can take a full day and even longer. Then test the roof mechanism again once the battery's fully recharged. Unless your dealer is close by, it can be a royal pain to take it in for issues that can be resolved at home. You can always take it there on Monday.

Let us know how you make out!

 

First - thanks for the suggestions - I really appreciate it.

I plugged in the battery tender for the first time ever at 10:00 am. Saturday. At midnight still charging - no big deal. At 10:00 am. Sunday the battery is charged - so it took somewhere between 14 and 24 hours - again, no big deal. Disconnected the tender, started the car and backed out into the driveway. Opened the roof - pretty much the same problem. Closed it and it was slow but did not DROP the roof at the end - still not good though.

Then I tried the suggested "roof reboot" and cycled the roof again - still no joy. Guess I have to take it in. The dealer is not all that far (maybe 30 miles) but the freeway traffic in LA sucks (I avoid them as much as possible). Oh well.

I have a question regarding "Service Campaigns" (since I have to take the car in for its annual next month anyway). How do you find out about these things? When I get the car serviced I always ask if there are any campaigns outstanding and I'm always told that I'm fine, but since I have seen several people post about mentioning specific ones when they get their car serviced I get the impression that these things are not looked at unless you specifically ask. So what's the deal here?

 

Steve, sorry about having to take it in. I too am familiar with 24/7 gridlocks - complete waste of time.

Can't help with the service campaigns but I would suggest you time exactly how many seconds it takes your car to raise and to lower the roof. It will help you to determine how well they actually fix it.

 

This indicates either your battery is on its way out or your charging system has a problem... worth looking into!

 

Ya, the last time I drove from Kitchener to Ottawa (in the Cali) two years ago, by far the longest part of the drive was getting through Toronto. Once past Oshawa it started to thin out - what a pain!

Thanks for the timing suggestion but I am a bit reluctant now to cycle the roof at all until its looked at.

 

Sorry to learn you'll have to have the top inspected. Another thought occurred to me. Did you try cycling it with the engine running? I was advised to run the engine whenever operating the top - as 4th_gear noted, the roof motors draw a lot of power. Even if the battery is recharged, if it is decaying, it may not supply sufficient current. Otherwise, maybe the top has gotten out of proper alignment and the motors are struggling with forcing the "arms" to fold/unfold.

WRT Service Campaigns, I just ask my service advisor, who in the past has confirmed I needed some of the campaigns I've seen discussed on F-chat. They use something called the MODIS system, which sounds like a FNA database that tracks which campaigns are associated with each VIN.

Good luck and please let us know the diagnosis as well as your dealership experience.

 

Sorry I didn't mention this before - when I open or close the top I ALWAYS have the engine running. I have never even tried to operate the top with the engine off. It seems to me like way too much to expect from the poor battery all by itself. It maybe designed to do this but I just don't really feel the need to put so much unnecessary stress on the battery. On the other hand, if it is designed to cycle on the battery alone, go for it - just a personal preference on my part. (And no, with the exception of the test cycles the other, day I never start the car just to cycle the roof!)

Once again thanks for the comments and suggestions and I'll post how it goes once I get it looked at. And I will mention Service Campaign 78!

 

Their system is called: modiscs.ferrari.it/ ...and exists also for maserati ....

 

Mel- Good info. Would love to be able to get into MODIS, but chances are zero for a non-Ferrari approved entity.

 

I agree the freeways in LA carry a lot of traffic.

But there are times during the day when it isn't gridlocked.

I suggest you just pick a non peak time to pick up and drop off

It's ten years since I lived in LA so I can't remember when the quieter times are, but there WERE some

I admit that that the freeways at 3am carry the same volume as an Australian freeway during business hours, that's something I never got used to, there was no time in LA when the freeways were near empty

It's disappointing that this forum doesn't have access to more technical information

I have been trying to get a copy of a service bulletin for the exhaust header issue for over a year with zero success

It amazes me the vast majority of people here are more concerned with custom stitching of cavalinos and floor mats than with the primary source detailing the mechanical problems of the car.

I guess it reflects the typical buyer profile of a Ferrari convertable

 

As far as the LA traffic is concerned you are quite right, there are times that its not really THAT bad and I do have the luxury of picking my time (contingent on the wife's approval of course since she will have to pick me up). I just like to b**ch and moan.

For the technical info, I think we are doing alright for a relatively new and trouble free model. I expect that the info may pick up a bit as the car ages and people start experiencing more problems. For now it is what it be.

 

At the moment all we get is opinion and heresay

I'm looking for the actual service buletins

When I was trying unsuccessfully to get the exhaust problem fixed at greypaul Nottingham they denied there was even a problem

When you can hand them the document it gives us a lot more power

I was able to quote them the bulletin number, and they simply said "that isn't applicable for UK cars"

Without the document I don't know if they are lying

We need copies of all the service bulletins

There might even be one for floor mats

 

Couple of points from a non-Ferrari owning lurker (owned 28 vehicles so far, fairly handy and read far too many posts).

The Ferrari charger is almost certainly a low end CTEK (~$30) with Ferrari stickers on and jacked up price tag. Don't worry Rolls Royce etc do the same thing. If you'd like to charge faster I recommend the CTEK 7002 CTEK Multi US 7002 12V Battery Charger : Amazon.com : Automotive which puts out 7A. I use one on my BMW hardtop 328i convertible (they eat batteries too). Of course it's better to leave the low amp trickle on all the time but few of us do that.

The good (great!) news is that your roof is not mangled. Motors/ electronics are far less expensive than a whole new roof. Can virtually guarantee the roof was outsourced, likely to the group that designed the roof for the new BMW hardtops so it likely has a lot in common with them (they look very similar from photos). My guess is an hydraulic pump issue but I don't know much about your roofs or even if they are hydraulic (seems very likely though).

Final tip for those out of warranty is to make sure the roof pivots are lubed from time to time. At the age most Californias are the dealers should be looking after this. When they start really aging and owners aren't all the $50M private jet types services get skipped.. Wurth HHS-K Spray http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0093LR0M8/ is the stuff to use, it sprays in thin and sets thick - just watch out for drips on that expensive interior! I bought my BMW convertible used with 10.3K miles (first used car in fifteen but they depreciate like bricks and I got it for 54% of MSRP).. anyway the roof creaked like crazy and that oil resolved the issue. Creaks turn into real resistance which turns into a bent roof. An unpainted roof alone is $19K for the lowly BMW three series and I dread to think what a California's would be.

Update: a quick Google shows Webasto made my roof and yours. Likely they are very similar, so as the cars age it should be helpful to search BMW forums for roof related issues. Good news is we've had very owners report issues with folding roofs other than leaks and that's normally due to clogged rain drains

 

On Tuesday morning I took the car into FoBH.

As I was unplugging the battery tender I noticed, in the trunk, some small "metal filings" and one miniature version of the type of shaving you might see from a metal lathe. That can't be right.

Then, as I was getting into the car, I noticed two dents in the roof - one on each side and up close to the leading edge of the roof. They appear line up with the little "feet" on the back window panel that rests on the roof panel when the roof is folded, but I'm sure as heck not going to fold the roof to confirm that. The dent on the passenger's side (right side) is really quite nasty.

The drive to FoBH was a PAIN since it rained a little bit and even the slightest precipitation in LA makes traffic really go to hell. I was almost embarrassed to pull into the service parking lot because that little bit of rain splattered crap all over the car. Cruds ...

So Scott comes out to write me up. I explained what was going on and he nodded rather knowingly. When I pointed out the metal bits in the trunk he said that they are probably part of the roof. Hmm... He then opened the access panel in the trunk that is opposite to the one for the battery tender connection, inserted his finger, and pulled it out dripping with hydraulic fluid. There you go ...

So they are going to have the car for (at least) a week. Scott said that this might be the clamp issue (Service Campaign 378) or possibly something else (pump exploded - who knows). It will be nice to know what they find. Meantime, if you think you are having roof problems be VERY CAREFUL. Partial failure of the hydraulics can cause a lot of damage apparently.

 

Ugh. I'm sorry to read this news. Hopefully the body work is covered as an extension of the warranty for the hydraulics failure, and can be addressed with paintless dent removal. Does anyone happen to know what hydraulic fluid is used? If its the same as brake fluid, it can be highly corrosive to the paint finish. Did you happen to take pics?

 

Just got my wife's 2011 Cali back from the dealer for the "roof failure" light too. Turns out a hydraulic seal broke causing fluid to slowly leak out of the pump. They re-sealed the cylinder, refilled the pump and the roof works again. Just wondering how many more seals are going to fail on a 2 year old 7k mile car?

 

Do I get a prize for the first to guess correctly? j/k - have spent many years on car forums - the final drop was the giveaway clue to it being a hydraulic fluid issue

Two reports is somewhat worrying. Webasto makes roofs for many cars. Certainly on the current gen three series I've never heard of a leak and I see many of those on the road everyday + that model has been out for six years now. Googling only shows a handful of the previous generation having roof fluid leaks

If anyone can grab a part number or photo where the leak is it would be interesting to see if it matches another car's. It would not make sense for Webasto to design a new pump etc just for the California. Also the BMW Webasto reservoirs are clear + have a correct level indicator. Might be worth locating this for the next owner who has a roof issue



Aside: am pretty sure hydraulic fluid won't harm paint. It's likely about the same as goes in my four post lift: basically plain Jane oil without additives IIRC. Brake fluid is special since it has to handle high temps + likely has additives to lessen hygroscopic [sp?] properties

 

Well it took two weeks which, while I missed the car a lot, is just fine: the roof is fixed and looks (and works) good as new. Not exactly sure what the problem was - the service sheet says "leak from left hand cannon piston". The FoBH folks were outstanding as usual.

 

Great news. How did they fix the dents?

 

Very well

I don't know the details - the car spent some time in the body shop and they (FoBH collision) performed what ever magic they do (it did involve paint though). As I said, good as new - they did a great job!

 

Steve, it's reassuring to know your car roof failure has been completely addressed by your dealer. Thanks for following up with more clues to the problem. I just took another look using the latest information from your report.

I think mp3_e46 has provided most of the answers. The hydraulic fluid that actuates the left (cannon) piston leaked out and the piston failed. It can't work without the fluid. It may have been a seal failure in the piston.

There are probably 2 of these pistons, left and right. If your left piston was disabled because of a hydraulic leak that would explain why the mechanism was so slow as it was only working on one piston. Here is a link I found to a FixYa web page describing a similar problem in a Chrysler Crossfire.

"...How to Open the Chyrsler Crossfire Roof manually? The left hydraulic piston of the roof is gone bad but I want to open and close roof manually as I cant afford the stupid cost. Or please advice where I can buy the left piston? Thanks Problem happened because of trying to open and close with no oil in pump - I didnt know it..."​

I took a look at the location of the hydraulic pump in my car.

Here's a photo of the access port on the left side of the trunk floor, with the cover removed. A pump appears to be immediately visible. The Chrysler Crossfire link seems to indicate 2 motors work the system, one for the roof panels and the other for the trunk lid. The California system is likely similar, so I don't know if which motor this one is.

Also, unlike the access port on the right which seems to provide access to the battery tender port and the manual release for the fuel filler cap, the left access port does not appear to serve an obvious function except to allow a service mechanic to look around ...for a fluid leak perhaps!

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The stamped name on the motor reads "faurecia".

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Apparently, FAURECIA is a huge French automative parts conglomerate. Unfortunately, I could not locate any information on this motor. But the label on the unit does seem to indicate a serial# + ID and what appears to be a build date and time which may be helpful if there is ever a recall on them.

Since these leaks apparently occur pretty often IMO, Webasto should have a feedback circuitry like a simple hydraulic pressure sensor that triggers in the event of a fluid leak.

Anyway, thanks to you guys I will now leave the access port cover latch in the open position so I can check for signs of a hydraulic leak every now and then!
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Good for you!

4th Gear, thank you for your diagnostics/forensics.