David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

No what they said exactly is that 0858 was a 350 Can Am and that's what they classiched it as which was a requirement of the auction.

They said if someone contracted with them to fit a replica P4 body they would only classiche that as a Ferrari of Historical Interest not as a P4.

 

Talacrest are now deleting any comments they perceive as negative about this project from their Facebook page. Truth hurts I guess.

>8^)
ER

 

Firstly typo 247 is not P4 it's 350 Can Am.

Secondly both this car and David's "0900" seem to claim the same # engine.

Thirdly IMO 0858's original P4 gear box was N5 not N8.

Fourthly Classiche and I had a discussion on 0858's History which they revised shortly before the auction.

I pointed our that 0858's original spyder tail which I owned the one that raced at Brands Hatch the history of which they were "revising" clearly showed evidence of having been blown off and damaged as period photo's confirmed and that 0860's tail had not blown off during the race and based on this and original Le Mans scrutinizing documents I had and showed them I doubted their "revised" History as for it to be correct Ferrari would have had to swap chassis plates AND restamp 0858 and 0856's engines. They stood by their revision but many Historians don't believe them. It is possible that they swapped and restamped but the tail damage and repair speaks for itself.

Two men say they're Jesus or in this case that they are Engine N2.

One of them must be wrong...
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The repair on 0858s tail is not proof positive that it was not the car that was was driven by Amon/Stewart. It may have been from an accident somewhere other than the BOAC 500 at Brands Hatch 67. These cars received many shunts and repairs. The above Classiche Document is official Ferrari proof that 0858 was the car driven by Amon and Stewart and should be respected until someone offers proof that is beyond doubt that it was not.

 

The original Le Mans scrutinizing records are VERY clear. 0858 is not the car Ferrari says it was at Le Mans. 0856 was. The only way Ferrari could be correct is if Ferrari swapped chassis plates AND RESTAMPED 0858 and 0856's engines.

Evidence of 0858's Brands tail damage very clearly matches period photo's of that race.

You want to spin David's "0900" AND 350 Can Am 0858 having the same stamped engine Number?

How about the engine in 0858 today being stamped 350 Can Am not P4?

How about the gear box stamped N8?

0846 N1
0850 N2
0854 N3
0856 N4
0858 N5
0860 N6

0858 and 0860 were converted to 350 Can Am's N7/N8.

Anyone have any records that show P4 0858 having N8 while it was a P4?

 

I don't have access to the scrutineering records. The only real official evidence/proof I have seen which identifies the P4 that came second at the BOAC 500 in 1967 is the scan of the Classiche Document which states that 0858 is that car and there is no doubt regarding the authenticity that it is a scan of the Original Classiche Document.

We already know that 0858 was converted to a Can Am car so why would the fact that the engine and gearbox are stamped as such have any relevance?

 

The very clear relevance is that 0858 as it exists today does not have it's original P4 engine or any P4 engine in it nor does it seem to have it's original P4 gear box.

Putting a replica P4 body on a 350 Can Am for the above reason amoung others does not magically make it a P4. Some have posited that the P4 engines were merely bored out but the classiche stampings clearly show that is not true and a new typo 350 Can Am engine was used to convert 0858 from a P4 to a 350 Can Am by Ferrari. I have seen Ferrari engines who's Typo's were changed by Ferrari retaining the same block and those are stamped with BOTH typo's not just the latter one.

The much more important issue is why are there two different cars, 0858 and "0900" both with Piper connections that are stamped with THE SAME TYPO AND ENGINE NUMBER?

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142307943-post378.html

 

I haven't seen the engine or gearbox so I cannot confirm whether there are modified 330 4.0 P4 and bored out to 350 4.2 Can Am spec units or original spec 4.2 Can Am units in the car. Most sources do state that the engines were modified and bored out P4.

Regarding your statement that you have made a number of times - "Putting a replica P4 body on a 350 Can Am does not magically make it a P4." I will counter, using the same reasoning as you, that putting a Can Am body and modifying a few engine details does not magically erase the, P4ness if you will, or that it was/is still essentially a P4 underneath bar for a few details.

 

Ferrari thought it did and gave it a different engine/body/gearbox/Wheel size/modified it's chassis and called it something different.

You still haven't addressed this simple important issue: TWO completely different Piper cars both claiming to have the same engine, not engine type, but the same engine as shown by the same engine stamped serial numbers N2.

"The much more important issue is why are there two different cars, 0858 and "0900" both with Piper connections that are stamped with THE SAME TYPO AND ENGINE NUMBER?

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142307943-post378.html

 

Hey, it's not like Ferrari didn't do the same thing from time to time.

 

I am just reviewing this thread and watched this film.This drive around the original Nurburgring "at full chat" and encountering slow traffic will keep you on the edge of your seat. The driver is GOOD in controlling an oversteering machine. Don't miss this!!!!! tongascrew

 

I haven't addressed the issue because I do not know why there are 2 serial numbers the same. Could it just be a mistake? I may be wrong about this, but isn't there another car, unconnected to a P4, that bears the 0900 chassis number also?

 

The chassis stamping on David's "0900" certainly wasn't made by Ferrari.

 

But he was authorised by Ferrari to use it.

 

David claims that about his "P4 0900" and Lugi Chinetti claims the same thing regarding "321P 0900".

Both of them can't be right and many believe neither are.

"0900" is a separate issue.

David claiming 350 Cam Am typo engine serial #2 is installed in his "0900", while the Ferrari Classiche documents you posted clearly show that 350 Can Am engine serial #2 is currently in 350 Can Am 0858 is quite another.

 

I advise you to do a little more homework. Don't believe all that is being written by Classiche.
Just my 2 cents

 

#0856 has been regarded as the most original P4 in existence for a long long time and its post racing history is very well documented since David A. Clarke's ownership. The statement that #0858 is the Le Mans #24 Mairesse/Beurlys car and the Monza winning Amon/Bandini car will affect the history of #0856 too.

This all started when #0858 came up for auction in an attempt to make the most of its value. At the same time every Ferrari historian knew Walter Medlin kept away 350 Can Am #0858 for a long time and that it remained untouched for years. To this point things were as clear and simple as could be.

Now the history of two original cars is troubled and one off them isn't an original tipo anymore. What the hell are they doing with these cars?

 

Crashes or damaging incidents were rare for the P3, P3/4 and P4.

0846: turned over by Bandini during '66 Targa Florio; hit wall by Vaccarella during '67 Targa Florio; right-rear corner burned during '67 Le Mans.

0844: crashed by Rodriguez at Monza 1000k in '67. (damage minor)

0850: crashed by Mairesse during Spa 1000k in '67 (too much damage to be repaired for Le Mans 6 weeks later, so Ferrari loaned him 0856)

0858 or 0860: lost engine cover at Brands Hatch 6 hours in'67.

So a P4 engine cover with evidence of damage can only be from one of the above.


BTW, those photos are in Piper's workshop at his house, with his 917 and transporter visible. As far as what Doug Nye calls Piper's "wobbly cars" go, just look for discussion on Porsche 917 s/n's and the question of 330P '0824'.....


Paul M

 

"‘I’d never driven a car that was such a joy to drive, as the 330 P4" Jackie Stewart quote in an interview of him titled Brave Heart by The Official Ferrari Magazine and Nick Mason.

See here: Brave Heart | Ferrari Magazine (english - international)

 

Would the history of these cars really make any difference to their value? Remember we are talking about very rare cars, each equally interesting.

Surely originality would make the most difference?
Pete

 

Pete, I agree. Originality and availability would be the two big pricing factors. If you have to have it, then there is likely only a limited choice, 3 built, 2 aparently not for sale....... Baring that, yes originality would be the key.

 

Its originality (and value) also depends on its history. Racing as well as post racing history make what the car is today. How many cars with great history are technically completely original? They are extremely valuable though and much desired. But one has to be correct when it comes to history. Otherwise it will affect more than just the car in question...

 

I strongly disagree. A car with successes including winning the Monza 1000km, and by coming second at the Brands Hatch BOAC 500 clinched the 1967 +2.0 World Sports Car Championship beating Ford and Porsche, was driven by greats such as Bandini, Amon, Mairesse, Beurlys and Jackie Stewart is hugely significant in the value. Don't you see that without the history these cars would not have existed? They are the result of and what makes up the history of this celebrated Golden Age of Motor Racing.

 

Good point. Poll ?