David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

The car was constructed by Ferrari as a P4, modified later in its life to fit another race series. The owner has chosen to return it to its original form.
No different than the folks that decide to return a factory NASCAR Plymouth Superbird to its original condition. After the wing cars were banned, many were rebodied as later model Road Runners and Chargers and raced for a number of years with completely different bodies and engines. Current owners have also created controversy by ignoring the later history and returning them to their most famous configurations.
This also occured quite often with factory built drag racers-fitted with later bodywork and engines-sometimes by the factory. A number of examples of road racers also were modified later in their lives-sometimes by their original builders. After all, they were just used up "junk" in the opinions of many after their initial glory. No one really cared about the less than successful Ferrari Can-Am, until recently. I would guess that there were opportunities for those with deep pockets to have made an offer high enough to have purchased the Can Am in order to preserve it. Maybe it would have required an offer equivalent to the price of a P4 to do so. If saving the Can Am is that important, buy the restored P4, the remnants of the Can Am body, etc and restore it back to Can Am status.
It is up to the owners to decide how best to configure their cars-the peanut gallery may squabble, but that's the way it is. The fact that this car is a Ferrari(and a rare one at that) does nothing to change this. It is unfortunate that Piper may have chosen to take some liberties with its restoration back to an earlier state. Considering that the car is far from complete, perhaps we should wait and see what the finished product looks like.
It also appears that some have a vested interest in this project for a variety of reasons and objectivity may have suffered as a result.

 

Vested interest? How so? The value or lack there of, of 0858 has no bearing on any other P car all of which are valued on their own based on their originality, history, the quality of their restorations and maintenance.

On another note the idea that Ferrari's reported history is correct is silly. Ferrari turned 0856 into a clone of 0846 and sold it as "The Daytona Winner" which it very clearly wasn't.

All of these cars are exactly what they are and are not and trade according.

It's a smart and efficient market at this level.

0856 is by FAR the most valuable P4 and that's not going to change. (Even though it's not The Daytona Winner)

 

I know this is impossible, but after reading all these posts, I really wish I can turn back time and somehow make the reserve price lower in the 2009 auction so people like JG would have bought 0858.

I can easily see how some people wants to convert her back to her pre-Can Am days as a P4, but one should really think ahead and realise that this is simply not possible considering 0858 as a sum of it's parts have been really irreversibly transformed into a 350 Can Am.

I really see this abomination of a "restoration" very similar in taste and intent to if when someone is restoring the Breadvan back to her original factory SWB configuration just because SWBs are somewhat more popular and/or worth more money someday.

Shame on these people to ruin 0858's life. To sum it up, I really wished 0858 ended up in better hands.

 

You have missed my point.

My point was that ALL of these prototype cars are rare and have interesting history. There is no need to add a race win to any of these cars as it won't affect the value of said car.
Pete

 

Again, I entirely agree with Psk, IMO anything that has a large production number has a totally different value structrue than a vehicle like 330P4 with 3 or 4 built, depending on classification. For example the 250LM is strongly affected by provenance and competition history with the Le Mans winning 250LM is the pinacle with something like #5899 being the least valuable and each cars history being key to its value. After all even with the 250LM there are 32 built and if your pockets are deep enough you should be able to wait for a better one to come to market.

With the 330P4 and only four being available you have much less choice, after all when are the other three going to sell, never, 20 years time, 50 years time are all logical options. So 330P4 is up for sale, the only one likely to be offered for many years, I would support the argument that the only thing important is the availabilty of a car when it is as rare as this. Any of the four P4 to come to market will be very valuable.......based on rarity above all else.

 

But history has to be correct. Btw there were three cars that started live as 330 P4...

 

Again, Napolis would argue there are four cars that the factory called and raced as P4. FWIW, I believe one of the key reasons that RM/ Sothebys ceased the Maranello auctions is the Ferrari Classiche arrangement. I am confident that given the choice, RM would have marketed this car as a p4 and of course Classiche made it clear they considered it a 350 CanAm. Like it or not, if I had the cash and purchased the car I would do whatever I wanted with it. And really, who is to tell me what I can or cant do with my possession ?.

 

One P 3/4, 3 P4's. (originally)

Today

4 412P's
1 P 3/4
1 P4
2 350 Can Am's both with Piper replica P4 bodies.

 

Off course one is free to do so. But I'm free to regret an original 350 Can Am is being rebodied with a replica body not using correct techniques. I'm also free to regret that prior to the auction of #0858 a wrong discription of its history has been published. In my book #0858 came 2nd in Monza and 2nd in Le Mans. Stewart/Amon drove #0860 at the BOAC.

 

I believe that reasoning is flawed at best.

0858 was born as a P4 and was then modified to a level that it stopped being a P4 and became a 350 Canam from then on. An original P4 and an original 350 Canam. Original because it was done by the factory, in period.

The fact that 0858 became a 350 Canam does not erase the fact that it was born as a P4. But that is not the point. The point is that 0858 can never return to her P4-state. Simply impossible. You can, however, make her look like a P4 but that is as far as it will go. That 0858 was once a P4 doesn't mean that putting a replica P4-body on her would make her today more of a P4 than any other Ferrari chassis with a replica P4-body. And the biggest problem is that a perfectly factory original 350 Canam is sacrificed for it.

So I vote this tread to be renamed:

David Piper destroys the Talacreast 350 Canam.

 

Like!

 

I vote this new name be subtitled: Why let history, provenance, and originality stand in the way of a half-ass effort to make a tarted-up version of something you can never be again in order to make a few bob? (Not pointing the finger at Pipes on the subtitle- he's not the owner).

 

Using that logic 0854 shouldn't exist... (which I don't believe).

 

You're confusing two different cars.

412P 0854 has totally continuous history from inception through today and today is totally original Chassis, engine, gearbox, body, etc. etc. etc.

All in all 0854 is the most original 412P existent.

Ferrari did scrap P 3/4 0846 and I wound up with it's original chassis and many of it's other orignal parts as very specifically disclosed in huge detail for years including 0858's original spyder tail. I "resurrected" 0846 (Ferrari's word/brought her back from the dead).

There is no similarity at all to what I did and what David is doing to 0858.

 

I am not stating that 0858 stops existing. 0858 remains, but the question is, as what? As a genuine P4, as a genuine 350 Canam or as a recreated P4? I'd say the latter. Which is fine, but a total shame if you take in consideration that it was a genuine 350 Canam.

 

Unfortunately I cannot agree with this comment. These cars are but metal and rubber, etc.

If all the details are modified or made correct then it could be exactly in detail as it left the factory, BUT not as it left the factory, ie. body gone, chassis tubes, etc. will have had to be replaced.

BUT ... that just becomes part of her history, like many of the 250LM's that burnt to the ground in period and had to be remade.

A shame yes because all those Ferrari made and orginal parts will have been removed to be replaced by replica parts but if Jim had bought #0858 and decided to return it to P4 form it would have come out as close as humanly possible.

While I have a lot of respect for Piper, he is not a historian, he is a race driver ... wrong person to consult over restoration details but right person to consult if you wanted to race your 250LM.
Pete

 

Pete

These are no longer race cars they are pieces of history. Modifying them in the day when they were real race cars is a lot different than modifying them today into replicas of what they once but no longer are.

 

So true - he didn't even know he had 0846.

>8^)
ER

 

There is that.

 

He may have known exactly what he had, or more to the point, didn't have. Piper by name..... People only believe what they want to believe.

 

The last time I spoke to David (At the time of 0858's NS auction) he still couldn't explain the difference between P3 and P4 chassis when asked point blank what they were. His fiasco explanation to Nathan which is clearly documented in the 0846 thread speaks for itself. (As an aside either could/can Tom Meade) Read what Marcel reported in the 0846 thread about Piper/Sabarro/0846. As Macca, who has actually inspected 0846, once said some people wouldn't know the truth if it dropped on their heads from a great height.

As per Rob the only place for 0846 debate is the 0846 thread.

 

Agree with all of that.
M

 

David Piper is no fool. Anyone who underestimated him and took him for one would be exactly that. Like I said, Piper by name...