MP4 prices are really plummeting on resale | Page 9 | FerrariChat

MP4 prices are really plummeting on resale

Discussion in 'British' started by finnerty, Mar 23, 2013.

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  1. TheMayor

    TheMayor Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    #201 TheMayor, May 14, 2013
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    The data just isn't there to support your "desire".

    Cars that sell without a Manual

    Every Ferrari Enzo, CS, Scud, 16M, California, 458 and the up coming F12 and LaFerrari.

    Mac 12c

    Nissan GTr

    Pagani Zonda and Huayra

    Aventador

    Bugatti Veyron



    and now the Porsche GT3.

    Do you really think there's some kind of grand conspiracy to "get rid of" manuals? They do it because there aren't enough people out there asking for them to justify it.


    Honestly, some of you guys sound like you are arguing about the demise of Atari because of the Xbox.

    Boxerman: You said you wouldn't give up 20% of your sales. Well, you would if it was more like 5% and it cost you twice as much as you would get in return to do it.
     
  2. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #202 boxerman, May 14, 2013
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    Sohow do you explain BMw's decision to sell manual M3's and 5's, its 20% of prod and somehow thye see fit to do it and support it. How doyou explain 30% of 991's How do you explain 100% of the previous Gt3 and no one complained and there was a wait list.

    It does not cost double to offer a manual. But yes it costs more to comply with regs and offer two powertains. Yet some sucessfully do so. BYW 50% of dodge challengers are manual.

    I do a lot of driving on the track, which means my posse of driver freinds actualy drive the wheels off, at least to the limits of their ability. I cant think of one person at a trackday who has said they would prefer somethig other than a manual, in fact the only flappy paddle cars there are GTRsn as thye are offered no other way, and the one 458 that show up very occasionaly.

    People who drive for speed and entertainment want manuals. they drive for pleasure and gaining skill,the trackday is the last redoubt of the performance driver, and I dont see pdk's there.

    People who have tp drive in traffic, cant drive or want a paper boasting specs want PDK. No sin in it, but as I say those who really drive and dont have to sit in traffic dont do PDK, which may explain why at the track in a De event which are all street cars you see 5% pdk. Also real drivers have something easy for daily traffic. My point is real drivers, those who use their cars to the max of their ability mostly go for manual,because its engaing entertaining and fun.

    Thise that have to be in front go for chipped GTRs. Next they will go for full computerised car in which you are the passenger.

    The only reason ferrari does not offer a stick is because their client base these days is mostly not hard core, and mostly not performance drivers, thos few who are make d or buy elswhere/ Yes it costs more to do teo transmissions and as most sales are not to performance drivers thts the crowwd staisfied.plus ferrari feels F1 gives them all the cred they need.

    As to Mclaren, they may have sold more offering two versions, one sticking to the original formula of the F1 for some drivers and then offering the current MP12 foreveyone else. Who knows the halo effect of a real tactile giozmo fre drivers car may have sold more MP12's.

    You see racing and sportscars dont have direct pollination. No one in racing cares about NVH rattles squeeks air noise, its just about laptime, so pdk is a feature. But a sportscar driver, ie a performance driver wants his machine to feel precision sound right and be engaging while still being trackable. Ferrari porche abandon any product with this formula at their peril. maclaren as we see is in peril.

    You dont see pdk motorcycles, and the one hinda offering it is a flop.You see a motorcycle isbought for the viceral operting experience. Same as a sportscar. Well actualy no most sportscars are bought by people who couldnt even sit on a motorcycle let alone ride one, its an impression pose machine for the driver and auduence. But my point is some still do by sportscars for the driving experience, and the wide audience follows them, hence the stick BMW.
     
  3. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    .

    Boxerman: You said you wouldn't give up 20% of your sales. Well, you would if it was more like 5% and it cost you twice as much as you would get in return to do it.[/QUOTE]

    Porche Gt3 sales were 100%.the return even if its 1% is credibility conferred by cognocenti who are afollowed by the crowd.

    Thats why vettes established the frmula in the 60's with different engine options. You know the .5% of vettes that were driven on the track and the rest that looked like they could but had small hp and autos.
     
  4. rmani

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    I see what youre saying. Ferrari especially seem to have such incredible power over its customer base they can dictate what is the preferred transmission to buy. I attribute this to the rich poseur needing to impress his friends more than his true desire to own a ferrari for the driving experience thats all. Its frustrating for the guys buying used. As we tend to be real car guys. Bottom line is if ferrari had made the 458 f1 only and mclaren made the mp412c with a manual trans id be watching mp4 prices like a hawk to scoop one up with zero desire for a 458. I think quitw a few may feel the same way.
     
  5. rmani

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    Agree on all counts. Funny at track days and autocroses i hardly ever see manual trans cars. Thts truly what theyre made for and none of the customers obviously bought it for that. They bought it because they cant drive stick and dont care to be truly involved in the experience.

    Being a playststion generation we all worshipped gtr34 nissans. The new gtr35 looks great and is stupid fast, yet none of us ever considered buying one. The reason 100% is no manual trans.
     
  6. Aedo

    Aedo F1 Rookie

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    Easy... they make A LOT more cars. The engineering effort is much the same... but when 20% of your production is more manual cars than McLaren make total it is easy to justify that effort.

    Me... I love my Rover engined Elise... manual, unassisted steering, unassisted brakes, just me and the road :)




    I want an MP4-12C too though ;)
     
  7. noone1

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    #207 noone1, May 14, 2013
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    I see little indication that 430s sell for 15% more with a manual. I've never noticed any cars with manuals getting more than their paddle counterparts. There are so few manuals that it's actually extremely hard to make a case because condition and specs very greatly. I really doubt two 430s with the exact same specs would have a 15% premium on the manual.

    You can't draw any conclusions from the GT3 because it didn't have a PDK version to begin with. That said, a 2007 is 40-50% under MSRP. A 997.2 can easily be had 20-30% under MSRP. When the 991 actually starts showing up, they'll drop even more.

    You can't draw conclusions from the BMW/Vette example either because in one case it's not the same type of car and in the other DCT isn't even an option. Manual BMWs are more often than not spec'd manual because it's cheaper. The Vette doesn't offer it, so naturally people are going to want a manual over the automatic. I bet a massive amount of those Vette owners would take the DCT if it was offered though.

    Cred? Serious driver? LOL. You're exactly right that if I was such a person I wouldn't want my track car to be an everyday runadround kind of car -- it would be a 911 Cup car, or Daytona prototype, or one any of one many real race cars. Why the heck would I want to be a stripped down street car when I could buy a stripped down race car?

    These are street cars.
     
  8. noone1

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    #208 noone1, May 14, 2013
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    Man, you guys just don't seem to get it. It isn't worth selling a manual in low volume cars like exotics anymore.

    There is no performance advantage to them and there is no financial advantage to them. Sure, maybe some people wish there was a manual, but most of them buy it anyways. The amount of people who wish there was a manual option and actually refuse to buy because there isn't is tiny. So small that it's not even worth considering.

    Speaking of posing: showing up at a track with a street car. Well no, not really, but if you were serious about such a thing you wouldn't bring a $150K exotic to a track day looking for some type of credibility.
     
  9. Scotty

    Scotty F1 World Champ
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    This is not necessarily true anymore. I was looking at a 335i sedan. It comes with automatic--a manual is a "no cost" option--meaning it isn't cheaper (at least to the end user--it may cost BMW less).

    Also, people might want a stripped street car a a track driver (I assume we are talking about HPDE events, and not true races where most compliant cars would not be street legal) so that they don't need a tow vehicle and a trailer. Yes, it is a compromise, but one that many "hard core" HPDE participants choose to make.
     
  10. rmani

    rmani F1 Veteran
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    we get it. the math doesn't add up for low-production costs. My only point was the depreciation aspect will most likely be worse. Case in point right here.

    Paganis, Enzos, GTOs. These are collector cars. They pretty much only appreciate in value so they aren't the norm. The majority of their buyers stick them in a showroom or garage and just look at them. They are so ultra rare that for collectors the value is there. For those of us who want fun cars to drive, price notwithstanding, they're cars we wouldn't ever want to own. I'll take an f40 or f50 over an enzo any day of the week simply because of the transmission.
     
  11. NSXLuvr

    NSXLuvr Formula Junior

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    U didn't say anything about "driver's oriented" car in your post. I track a Spec Miata with no power steering, no ABS, no stability control... heck it doesn't even have door handles. My other car is a track sorted NSX. I think I know a bit about "Driver's" cars. I am just stating a fact. Offering a slower, less technologically focused 12C is completely against the Ethos of McLaren Automotive. Simple as that. You want a 3 pedal car - Get a F1 or a look for a Porsche.

    P.S. here is a nice video about the 12c being a "Driver's car".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqjxPPZiUqY

    Regarding watches -- UGH....Really? Can we please stay on the topic at hand instead this being another Fchat thread that is about showing off.
     
  12. TheMayor

    TheMayor Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    It's amazing that in one post you can be 1) so wrong, 2) so insulting, and 3) so naive.

    The tri-fecta!
     
  13. rmani

    rmani F1 Veteran
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    didn't mean to offend you. sorry about that.
     
  14. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    Well, that's a hell of a lot bigger of a compromise than having a DCT imo. Also, how many of them gut their 6-speed Ferraris and ZR1s down to the metal?
     
  15. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

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    I don't know what tracks you frequent but I never see auto trans cars unless they are the latest model cars without manuals.
     
  16. rmani

    rmani F1 Veteran
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    huh? that's what i was saying too. i always see 3-pedal cars at the tracks.
     
  17. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

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    I just went with this: "at track days and autocroses i hardly ever see manual trans cars" and interpreted it as rarely seeing manual trans cars
     
  18. rmani

    rmani F1 Veteran
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    poor communication on my part. most likely due to surfing fchat while at work. :)
     
  19. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Could not have said it any better.
     
  20. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Mayor seems very sensitive to this subject, maybe its a self justification thing, maybe he never drove all out, or maybe he has happily embraced the "future" so cant understand us.
     
  21. Scotty

    Scotty F1 World Champ
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    #221 Scotty, May 15, 2013
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    I'm sorry--I'm don't understand your post. What is a bigger compromise than a DCT (do you mean a torque converter automatic--if so, I agree). And truth be told, very few folks gut their cars to bare metal (and I'm talking DE days, not sanctioned races) and most gutted cars are older and not valuable (again, true racing, including vintage racing, excluded). But why does it matter that a 6 speed Ferrari driver hasn't gutted his car. At most of the track days I instruct at, neither has the Lotus, the BMW, the Subaru, or the VW driver.
     
  22. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #222 boxerman, May 15, 2013
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    i can only go by what my local ferrari dealer toild me re 430's. They aslo said that a manual 430 is a quick sale.

    My conclusions re the GT3 perhaps you did not understand. it was a manual only car, it was sold out with a waiting list, so c;early there is a strong customer base for a manual car. I also dont here too many GT3 owners rejoicing the future now offered.

    As to the Vette 0-60 is quicker in an auto, has been for some time. So in astreet envisroment you go for a manual for driving pleasure skill etc. yes a lot of people will say they want PDK because if ferrari and porche have it then it must be better right? And for many drivers it is a better choice, but for a performance car driver who drives hard fpr the pleasure of it its a poor choice, the numbers at trackdays prove that.

    As to getting an all out race car, then why get a cup car why not just get a formula ford.
    Track cars have much more intense maintanance requirements too.
    This is what we want is a fun to drive on the street car, we are not always at the track, but a car that can be driven hard on a DE day. You know the modern equivalent of a ferrari 250 SWB. That is what the last Gt3 was.

    That is what My Lotus is, you go to the track click the suspension tighter swap wheels and pads and youre good to go. Clean it up and drive around all weekend long till the next convenient trackday when you can go all out again.

    IMHO that is the future of performance driving, fun on nthe street and dialed in and strong at a trackday. Between what cars can do, and traffic and rules that is the best option for a performance car driver. Its not about infinitessimal outright speed, its about driving pleasure and a car that can be repeatedly taken to the limit at the track while taking some skill and being fully engaging to the driver, that is what a GT3 was. There is a reason why plenty of gt3's, maitas, stick BMws, loti and vettes at the track. Never really see a PDK turbo and just 1 458 on rare occasions.

    Since a 997.2 GT3 was 120K with reasonable options let me know when yous see one with low miles in pristine condition for 30% below MSRP, I am a buyer.

    Funny how good 993 turbos are still an 80k car? Whereas what does a 20K mile 996 or 997 turbo with PDK cost and what is their price trajectory?

    Now if I were Mclaren I would redesign the goofy face. I would make a version without all the doodads, something with a LSD, something with a really engaging steering and something without that weird floaty feeling suspension. you know its Ok for an exotic to feel alive.

    In my book there would also be a manual maybe even a sequential one. This would be a MP12 that in spirit and feel would be the sucessor to the F1. I bet without the doodads , its a 200k car. I know I would buy one, have fun just driving around on the street on occasion, I dont need it to work as a daily, and wouldnt want the compromise to make it a two door cadilliac as it is now.

    And then I would also drive the wheels off on the track. And yes in the hands of lewis hamilton it may be half a second slower, but so what. And yes they may not sell more than a few hundred, but it would underpin the brand and every car magazine would laud it as the best drivers car out there, the holy grail, and that woudl help sell a whole lot of regular MP12's, just like the zo6 helps sell a whole lot of auto vettes. You knwoi what i suggest would not cost much to develop at all, most of that is already present in the race car anyway, what is lacking is vision in terms of the customer.

    How many rossions have been sold. And that is an expensive no name brand car, that you partialy have to put together, without the fit and finish of a production item, there is a biog market out there for established brands to sell to performance drivers.
     
  23. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    My point is that driving a street car on the track has very little credibility in the first place. Even if you think a manual is what the 'real' drivers drive, you're still driving a road car on a track. You could turn many very cheap cars into more or less real race cars that would destroy a manual 430 around the track, so what's the excuse for not doing it? If you were in fact serious about it you would tow the car there.

    Saying that driving a DCT lacks credibility while driving a street car on the track is just a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
     
  24. Scotty

    Scotty F1 World Champ
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    I couldn't disagree more. How are you defining "credibility"? I know many devoted drivers, who strive to improve their skills, their understanding of car handling dynamics, their understanding of car systems (brake fluid boiling points, brake pad temperature ranges, etc.) using street cars. They may not have the time or desire to own a trailer, a tow vehicle, nor get a competition license and do the requisite number of races to keep it current. They may be financially limited (or limited by their spouse, their garage space, etc.) in terms of owning a "track only" car. I know plenty of track drivers who are plenty serious who drive their cars to and from the track. I'm defining someone as serious in that they devote time and effort into seeking continuing improvements in their skill set(s).

    I never said driving a DCT lacks credibility. But your statements seems to reflect an unusual bias that doesn't seem to mesh with my experience across assorted tracks in the pacific northwest.
     
  25. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    You can't draw a conslusion about the GT3 because it never had the option of PDK. The car was sold out, not the transmission.

    You are aware that DCT are not the full blown automatics that come in an automatic Corvette right?

    The reason that you don't see PDK and DCT cars in numbers at the track is because when it comes to performance cars that you'd want to track, they are mainly in exotics and expensive cars, and for the most part are quite new. Of course you aren't going to see a bunch of 458's at a track day -- most people don't have one or can't afford one in the first place.

    You can't compare the number of manual Corvettes to the number of 458s.

    As for a car that can be driven hard on a DE event, I guarantee there are DCT cars that are vastly more raw than whatever manual you drive. Are F1 cars not driver's cars? Are they too vanilla because they have paddles? The fact of the matter is, if your DCT car isn't raw enough it's because you aren't driving it hard enough. Turn off all the electronics on a GTR or 458 and put it in the hands of a Le Mans driver. I bet it requires vast amounts of skill to drive as fast as possible.

    You can obtain the same engaging drive in a car with paddles... if you're good enough. I guarantee that the guy who did a 7:25 lap in a 12C was driving 10/10ths and required vastly more skill than anyone who shows up at track days has. Again, if you don't feel engaged enough, you aren't good enough. Every car has a limit, even DCT cars. Just because a DCT could allow for a higher limit doesn't mean it's less engaging. Driving balls out in the 12C is probably even harder than your Lotus. Maybe you have more fun setting a 1:10 lap in your Lotus than you would in setting a 1:10 in a 12C, but that's probably because the 12C could do 0:59 or whatever.

    Again, you can't make any argument about 997.2 GT3 prices with relation to transmissions because there was only one option. GT3 prices are what they are. And just like all cars, once the next model starts shipping (991 GT3,) these models will continue to slide.

    Not sure what 993 prices have to do with anything. Again, it has nothing to do with the transmission. 993 is a desireable 911 for whatever reason. A 959 is expensive too. Does that make it a better drive than a 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0?

    The car you describe would do nothing for sales of the former. A stripped out 12C would do nothing for the brand. 911 GT3s don't sell 911s. Scuds don't sell 430s. LP570s don't sell LP560s. Mustand Cobras don't sell Mustangs. ZR1s don't sell Corvettes.

    Lastly, Rossion is a terrible example. They had decent reviews for what they were and did nothing sales wise. No one buys them and the are terrible on depreciation. A decents spec was like $130K and they can be had for like $60K now. The only reason they didn't depreciation a higher percentage is because the price only goes to $0.
     

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