MP4 prices are really plummeting on resale

I dont know, there are all the Miata guys, and some street driven Maitas are quicker round the track than a spec miate, which is the most popular track car. Then there is the mini crowd. they show up, track wheels in little bags on the back seat jack in the trunk, switch everything around, change the pads, plug a computer in for a quick flash and off they go for a day of 3 wheel cornering fun. Most of these cars are DD.

See the thing is if you have a nice car, its fun to drive on the street, bit you can only saftly ring it out on the track. So a car that can do both, ie be fun on the street, and wont wilt on the track with lots of the right sounds and feedback is a desireable combo.

A deidcated track car requires degrees of dedication to speed and a comitemnt of time plus mechanical ability which is another orbit entirely.

Performance drivers used to be able to enjoy their cars on the street. But then we got more traffic, severe enforcement and cars got so fast that the street is very limited. So a car that is fun to drive at 7/10ths ont he street is appealing, because most weekends that is where you are. At the same time to have a totaly engorssing drive at the track is great tonic and you are not risking your license, jail or civillians. How fast you go and how well you do it is a challenge with yourself. Its not just how fast you go but also how you go fast.

Considdering that a basic porche is already faster round a track than many an old race car, there is little point in going for nth degree performance, plus all the band aids not only remove fun.but are also a crutch to gaining skill. Is not a 997.2 Gt3 faster than a 911 race car from not so long ago.

So yes amongst serious racers a street car on the track is little cred, although the racers I know love Gt3 porches and Loti when they drive them at the track. True a BMW is too heavy soft etc. What we are talking about is not racers but performance drivers who have nice cars, for obvious reasons they cant run them hard on the street, so they go to DE days, and they want their cars to also be fun and engaging on the street and track.

You see it in balck and white, either its a soft street car or ahard core ultimate lap time track car. there is a third path, the dual purpose car. its not a GT car. More like something a little too hard and focused for a daily, but a great rewarding weekend driver at 710ths that is lithe tight with agreat revy motor and a lot of blanaced fun, while at the same time being hard enough and competant enough to run hard and be rewading at the track, with production reliability and parts that will hold up and not break the bank.

In other words a modern rendition of a steel 250swb. You know the type of car from an era when race cars and sporting street cars were not divorced. Something like the late departed Gt3 but from ferrari and or Mclaren. I think its great niche. Its where dodge viper and Z06 sales go and Mclaren would do well to make a product for it. After all is than not what the F1, 288 Gto and F50 were all about. Then we wnet to heavier paddleshifted enzo with alltypes of nanies, yes they were faster but so what.

 

Those people aren't really relative to this thread. The 12C is a $200-300K car. A street car is much more of a compromise than a transmission choice if you could very easily afford a track car.

That is where is see a lack of credibility. A person who can afford a $300K car and then speaks of such credibility while driving a street car on the track.

 

OK, still not sure I completely agree, but I am seeing your point. Thanks for clarifying.

 

So you just want your teeth and dash rattled? What you are asking for has existed for the last 10 years. Why do you even want a new car? A 12C that is how you say will do exactly the same things as a 997.2 GT3 on the street, so I ask again, why do you care about new cars if you don't want them to do anything different?

 

Frankly you are talking convaluted BS. If a DCT or PDK was the thing to have then the 997 GT3 would not have been sold out. Point is there are plenty of performance drivers who prefer a simpe rugged manual type car. Offering a stick only did not hold the GT3 back at all, they more than sold all they could make.

i know the auto in a vette is a slushbox, point is for the street is that not really better than a dct for most drivers, and in accleration these days there is no performance penalty in a slush box, and it downshifts smoothly and holds gears. So a DCT in car like this is more latest tech gimmick than something 90% of auto drivers appreciate.

yes a DCT is faster at the track, but more fun and engaing, no. And on the street where we do at least half our performance driving a DCT is the same as a good slushbox, hardly more engabing than a slushbox anyway. And I have driven a 458 and mc12 in anger. neither does anything a GTR cant do, they are all pretty much the same boring drive unless you are at 10/10ths pro level at the track.

The 959 is actualy not that desireable because of its tech. In period it was rated second to the 288 GTO because all the electronics made it less fun to drive and now its 1/2 or less the price of a 288 for that reason. In fact the 2.7 Carrera rs is more valauable than a complex 959 and more fun. The reason why a 993 turbo is worth more than a superior performance 996 or 997 is because it is more engaging viceral and fun. The newer products may well be objectively better, but subjectively they lack. You make the point yourself, the analogue GT3 4.0 is more fun than a 959.

And that is the point, its not just about the transmisiion its the whole videogamoing of the performance car in the name of laptimes that only 10 people can acheive anyway.
What is lost is the driver interface, the tactility of the wheel, pedals and transmission. Its like firing a laser instead of shooting agun, more effective perhaps but from a sporting plkeasure perspective pointless.

As to a Maclaren or GTr in a pro divers hands at 10/10ths. Yes I am sure it requires immense skill but you miss the point. Unless you are at 10 10ths these cars are not much fun, and pretty much only pros van get there. You know a fully computerised google robo driving GTr will be faster than anyhting, and it might be fun to be a passenger for a while, but not nearly as engaging skillful or as much fun as driving an 997 gt3 to the limit.

The 997 GT3 prices will not slide as you predict, just as 993 turbo prices did not slide much and then recovered. This is because the type of drivers cars they are is no longer produced, but the pool of drivers desireing these viceral engaing machines remains. That means there is a market gap not being served.

lastly 997gts3 absolutly sell 911's. In fact its the sporting cred of 911's that sell the rest.
Even if youa re right and the extreme models dont sell more, they do sell to a particular and good client base, so why abandon that client base. the only reason Rossion can sell any cars is because that client base is deperate, so goes thorugh all the difficuty and build to get a rossion.

As for scuds and lp whatevers, they came at the end of the production cycle keeping the line alive to sell to the performance crowd what they hitero could not get, all of thse cars are also paddle crap. But yes they were viceral so 3/4 of the way there. Yet the slower GT3 outsold them all.

But yes its not just about the transmission, that is one componant, another is sterring feel and a whole lot of other driver intefaces that provide pleasure, like an micrometer exact throttle, a smooth engine that can rev forever with a growing powerband.

Stirling moss said the straights were the boring bits between the corners. We want to be engaged and entertained. If outright spec speed is your thing fine, but that doesent mean the whole "experience" has to be dumbed down for the rest of us.

Could anyone here drive a modern F1 car No. But a number of us could drive a 60's F1 car and hgave aball doing it. racing and sreet cars have diverged. There is a market for engaing street cars that are track capable. the last GT3 proves that, and Mclaren would do well to build a product that fits that niche. I think another 500 sales per year would not go amiss. And while you brag online about how fast the DCT this si in apro drivers hands the rest of us will be out driving and tracking leaning how to go faster and having a ball.

You know a lot more people can learn to fly a P51 than a F22, and most jet fighter pilots love flying p51.s even though they are slower and less capable.

 

Not just the northwest. Northeast too

 

Have you even driven on the track. I see you have an R8 the few I have seen at the track dont seem to last. But cool original looking car and a great daily.

What I am taling about is the MP12 reimagined in the idion of the F1, you know a viceral machine. Its not all black and white its about driving pleasure and viceral pleasure.

the current MP12 is like sex with a condom, I want the real thing.

 

New cars are a) showroom new, not used. B) have improvents in performance and durability
C) dont have to be less tactile or viceral to be new D can have more applealing and fresh styling.

Point is you dont have to loose the sense of fire and brinstone, tactility or sheer driving pleasure in the name of newness and progress, that is a false path. What most of these new cars are is progres for the sake of progress and paper bragging rights, but the driving pleasure and point of the machine is lost. And no you dont need teeth rattling ride. A buttoned down ride need not be teeth rattling, try a lotus, its smooth without being disengaged..

Do you think a spec miata racer with 300k to spend for an weekend car and occasional trackday fun is going to find a Mp12 entertaining or appealing.

I think progress would have meant offering all the things that made the F1 great in a 250k price range with modern tyres brakes and crash protection, reliabilty. After all is not the Maclren street car image upon which they wish to trade more than partialy based on the greatness of the F1. Is the F1 not considered the greatest and now worth 4 mill un heard of in amodern because it offers so much of what moderns lack, even though the moderns may be faster round a given track.

Its not just about the transmission, the DCT is just a symptom. Some cars can get away with fappys and still be more than entertaining, the aventador which is performance inferior to a 458 and mp12 is well sold out because its just awesome, a MP12 is not just totaly awesome even though its very accomplished, just as a 959 was very acomplished but the lower tech 288 was just totaly awesome and still is. Well actualy the 288 was not really lower tech, it was just tech applied differently.

 

Yes and its because of all the manuals in its product offering that Ferrari is solling more cars now than ever. Oh wait...

Silly discussion to suggest that McL should or should have build manuals. Go take a look at their philosophy and positioning. The critisism they receive in the market place is NOT because they don't sell manuals.

 

Indeed. This whole discussion has gotten rather far away from the subject on MP4 prices, and more about moaning over manuals being phased out.

 

You guys keep making this non-existent connection between driving experience and price/value. The driving experience really has nothing to do with price/value unless it's just a bad car. It all comes down to brand, rarity, and supply and demand.

Here's a simple one -- CGT vs. Enzo. Why does an Enzo trade at $1M and a CGT trade at $300K? They are very similar in performance and the CGT is arguably much more raw than the Enzo. How come there are 7 of them on eBay right now and no Enzos?

Ok, maybe an Enzo is too special. How about a 599 GTO with paddles? How about an F40 with a twin turbo engine? How about an F50 which is often considered the least desirable of the Ferrari halo cars? Again, I don't see many of these cars listed for sale right now, but I can find a slew of CGTs.

How about the Rossions you guys are talking about? Decent spec was $130K. Today you'd probably get about $60K for it and it wouldn't even be that easy to sell.

McLaren depreciation has nothing to do with the performance or driving characteristics of the car. It's a marketing and supply/demand issue with a bit of dealer scarcity sprinkled on top.

 

I think you have no clue what youa re talking about. Your examples are comtradictory.

The F40 they made 1500 plus of and its still worth more than list and condidered as a drive if not the greatest pretty close its a manual raw car.

The F50 is condidered not very pretty but the best of the lot to actualy drive, and it is a manual, it also has the motor rigidly mounted to the bulkhead. it was 750k new, pretty much stayed there and is now 1500 000.

So your point is what, that ferrari is is sell because they are ferraris. Then how come a porche RS 2.7 is so expensive. Yes any ferrari is going to sell that does not make it great.

Your point about the Cgt proves it. the CGT is not great looking, a V10 engine has never had the sound and they were unstable to drive at speed. Its not one of the greats.

the RS 2.7 is worth what it is as are early 911s at 100k purely because of the driving experience.

You seem to argue that more accomplished on paper with a pro is better, we are arguing that very accomplished but but frationaly less than a DCT car with gobs more driver engagement is better and a more appealing product to those who drive on the street and occasionaly on the track. In other words to people who buy sportscars and actualy drive the wheels off them.

Ie those not looking for something that can masqyerade as a daily for poeseurs, but something to be driven for pure driving pleasure. We are prepared to trade off the last half asecond of lap time to have feedback through all touch points of the car, to have the car feel like an extension of our being, as opposed to a video game consol we sit in.

But I understand if you cant really drive or dont, then yeah a faster computer car has its appeal, and that is what the majority want. Its just that 20% of us prefer something more viceral and ferrari and Mclaren would do well to offer it. You know the difference between live muisic and canned lip synch stuff for Tv ads.

In fact all criticism I have read of the MP12 says it lacks the zing of the ferrari, its fast but no fun. Its not just the tranny its the whole thing, too anodyne. What the Mclaren can do is be a confortable daily that puts down great track numbers. I want soemthing that does all the other bits too, and I am prpared to sacrifice some daily functionality to get it.

So having driven the Mclaren, its pretty obvious that the tub and layout are potential more serious than ferrari. the brakes had the best modulation of any streetcar i ever drove, so they can do tactility, it just was not a spec crteria they understood elsewhere. they would do well to build it in to their product. I for one am pretty tired of being assocaeted witht he whole ferrari thing, its pretty lame, although i do love my car.

if Mcklaren made what is known in england as a drivers car I woudl have bought one.

 

not really. the basic premise was asking about resale values on the mclaren and I think that the used car market will be hurt because there's a group of people no longer interested in buying the car. that is just one hypothesis for the lowered residual values of mp412cs. Maybe it's wrong, but it seems common sense that if you eliminate a large portion of the used car buyers (the dealers I've spoken to all say the same thing. that most used buyers want a manual) there will simply be less interested people for the car, and it's value will have to come down accordingly. supply and demand.

 

I have long held the rather unpopular opinion that the problem with the McLaren is not the type of transmission - I think the problem is the engine.

Quite simply, it does not offer the sporting character of the Ferrari 458 - I personally think that turbocharged or not - it simply does not have enough cubic inches to make the grade in this class of car.

 

Sorry Sean, but that's not correct. The V10 sounds awesome and of course it's perfectly stable at v-max. Maybe not everyone likes its looks, but it's incredible to drive.

A MP4 is a Ron Dennis car and 458 is an Italian car. Nothing wrong with Ron Dennis, but of course they are two different characters.

 

From what i have read, the carrera GT is really a le mans race car, but on street tires without the downforce and low ride height of a lemans car and more power, so easily gets out of hand. Leno who is an actual driver with some skill for a streetcar guy spun while testing. The guys at top gear, the stig who is an actual race driver kept on spinning while trying to do a fast lap. Like the early viper it can and does get out of hand quickly, the old term was widowmaker.
I agree its probably incredible to drive, but its shortcomings, (engine sound, looks, reputation for tricky handling) are holding prices back, another one of the shortcomings is very high operating costs. This is one area where the Mclaren is streets ahead in virtue..
But at 200K I am a buyer for a CGT, are they there yet?

Yes the MP4 is a Ron Dennis car, its an engineers car. My point from post 1 is that we all aso want a fun to drive car, and these are not necessarily the same thing. I maintain that Mclaren would do well to make a more Gordon Murry version of the MP12 for those of us driving purists.

I think I am not the only one with that opinion. Its not an us or them, its a function that some of us(a minority but still significant market) want and are prepared to buy a vehicle with different dynamic and tactile criteria, which is still new and modern. When the Mp12 came out, i thought great this is the new steroidal version of the original NSX. Its not.

Someone here posted that part of the issue is the motor. In this type of car we like a motor that sounds like what we imagine an older grand prix or lemans car sounds like, something of charater, if its turbod the explosive F40 or 993 turbo power comes to mind..

Lots of companies do exhaust sound. mazda did it ont he Miata, and after the 550 ferrari figured out to do it on the subsequent cars. Corvette does it, hell even the mustang boss 302 does it. Mercedes does it well on their turbod amg motors. Its part of the appeal of a sporst car. The MP12 is just a tonesless blare, noise not sound. theya re missing the point on part of the appeal. These types of cars are as much about art and drama as objective criteria,

Steering feel, once again the miatas claim to fame, and something that sustained legiions of 911's, no reason not to have it. Look at the aventador, it has all the great elements and despite my porsonal disdain for its transmission choice, it is a car that quicklens the pulse and undoubtably would be fun to drive.

I get it the Mp12 can easily be a daily. There is a segement of the sporting crowd say 20% that is not looking for a daily, they want a special occasion car that feels like a race car on the road, quick and tactile, that feels even better on the track. Sometghing well balanced but not a driving version of sex with a condom..

When you get to used cars, that market is probably less motoivated by flash than driving dynamics, so the anodyne features of the Mclaren are even more of a drawback.

My point is put another way. the F1 was designed to be the supercar you could use everyday, and a number of people have, Rowin Atkinson being the most famous. Yet the F1 is reputed to be by all who have driven it a tactile dynamic delight which you can spend a lifetime exploring and enjoying. I would suggest that Mclaren put that DNA into a version of the MP12.

So yes its a Ron Dennis car, but as we see it is not selling in the numbers anticipated and its resale is less than desired. You see everything that makes a F1 track car great is not necessarily everything we want in a weekend and trackday car. Its not all about ultimate nth dgree speed with a pro, its about engagement, its not about fuel econiomy or being able to sit in traffic, its about being fun tactile and engaing at any speed on the street. So yes i thin k they missed the mark, and foirgot what made the F1 great, it was tech and best amterials applied for sheer driving enjoyment and useability combined. The MP12 is tech for useability and objective performance numbers.

I must say though that the reasale at 1 year is not the same as Ferrari, but ferrari is like rolex in that regard. Is a 3 year old Mclaren going to have depreciated more than a 3 year old R8?

If Mclrens start showing up at trackdays in numbers like GT3's do and creaming everybody, If those doing the driving say how much fun they are to drive, if magazines say this is the late F1 in a more affordabkle better package, will they not be known as the car to have? At least amongst those that form opinions. then the regular auto everything will sell in bigger numbers too.

Yes the Gt3 may not make more average 911's sell. But the history and theoretical DNA of sporting 911's is what makes them sell, and in fact other porches. As they morphed into the new 991 all that remains is a flat 6 and the shape, i dont think thatw ill sustain them over time. In any event how awsome would a new cayman with Gt3 motor and stick be, probably from a subjective perspective the best fun car you could buy, even if soemthing else is technicaly faster.

trackday and DE events are growing with sportcar driving cord. Serving that market may be a new idea but its no a bad one, and its a market anlogous to the amateur racers of the 50's who drove 250 swbs 356's Mg Td's etc. Its also how those brands did build cred.

 

Your point about the Cgt proves it. the CGT is not great looking, a V10 engine has never had the sound and they were unstable to drive at speed. Its not one of the greats.

This quote is a textbook example of a keyboard genius making statements when he knows not what he/she is talking about.
Firstly, many agree that the howling sound of the race derived V-10 in the CGT is arguably the greatest sounding supercar ever produced.
Secondly, the CGT is EXTREMELY stable at ultra high speeds. I know I have one and have pegged the speedo for quite a distance on an abandoned and closed road in central Florida.
Thirdly, I feel the reason the CGT has not YET appreciated at the level of the Ferrari, Pagani, McLaren F1 is that it is TO raw and race car like. If this car had been equipped with an automated manual it would appeal to a much larger audience who like to drive down the boulevard and valet park. Plus they made 3 times as many of the Porsches then they did the Enzo.
Looks are all subjective but I like discreet cars and my silver CGT is just that.

 

Wow did this thread take a hard left turn.

This thread is supposed to be about MP4s and depreciation. To the extent driving experience on track is part of the equation, I'll give my personal opinion.

My background is that I race, and pretty competitively at the club level. I suspect with good equipment and some seat time and a coach and race engineer, I could podium in Grand Am or World Challenge. I probably am too old and slow to really run up front in a fast formula car, as they are very physical.

I own an MP4. I also own and track many other cars, and vastly prefer a dedicated track car to a street car on track. My track cars include SRF, SM, Turbo Miata, Turbo Elise, and Radical SR8. The latter 2 are way faster than any street car I have driven on track.

The SR8 has a paddle shift system that pneumatically operates the sequential Hewland and blips throttle as well, so it is "clutchless" in the sense that the clutch is always engaged. Even faster than a DCT, as the engine and transmission are always directly connected.

I like to go fast and want a car that exploits the most performance possible from the engine and paddles are just plain better (in a DCT - I don't think the earlier technology is as good as I am).

I will occasionally track my Macca and will pay attention to lap times and see just how fast I can make it go. If my MP4 had been available with a manual, I would still have taken the DCT because it is faster. I also selected the MP4 over the 458 because I value objective performance first and foremost, and I could not personally pay more for a car that excelled only in subjectives.

And I am very competent with traditional heel/toe and my race cars all require that skill.

But faster is faster and I can not willingly buy the slower car.

So wax all subjective about the art of driving a manual trans car, but this racer/driver just has to have the objectively faster car.

 

In light of this topic, I thought these comments from Brian Johnson (ac/DC, car nut) were pretty relevant (again - I will reiterate I like the 12c spider alot)

“Look at the blokes we pass,” he says. “This car draws their attention, and it damn well should, but it's softer than the 458. Maybe it doesn't hold the attention as long. The noise isn't quite as engaging—maybe more like noise than a song.”

After nearly 100 miles in the MP4-12C's driver's seat, Johnson is still wondering. He uses the word “engaging” a lot.

“The attention to detail [in the McLaren] is fantastic,” he says. “It's gorgeously manufactured, but there's something I'm not seeing in here. It's smooth and all a bit clinical. In the circumstances we're in, it's not as exciting as the 458. When we got to the track we might go, 'Holy ****, mate. This thing is the tits.' But on the way there, trying not to look like an idiot or get the cops' attention, wary of the pissers in Continentals who don't see you. It isn't as engaging as the Ferrari.

“A pimp wouldn't drive this car because it's just not outrageous enough, but I'm not sure who would drive it. It's an excellent car, an awesomely capable car, but then it falls off. Right now I haven't figured out where it lands. It feels like taking your mother-in-law to dinner, if your mother-in-law is Sophia Loren. It's all there, but still something's missin'. If I bought this, in a month I might be looking for more.

“Reminds me of the [Audi] Q7 we had. [My wife] drove it, and in lots of ways, it was a way better than the Range Rover, and I'd tell her, 'I hate this car.' She'd say 'Why? It's never done anything to you.' And that's it, exactly.”

 

Yeah I gues that is why ferrari just announced that theya re cutting production to maintain "exclusivity"

the criticism of Mclaren is its not really much fun to drive and the dynamics feel isolated. Type of transmission is one factor not insurmountable if iot had the other virtues. The aventador pulld it off in spite of a F1 gearbox, Its the whole anodyne experience that holds Mclaren back, despite its objective numbers.

You know drifitng a modern is terrible for lap tuimes, but people still like the fun and skill of doing it.

 

Art you are correct i have never driven one, and maybe the rwness holds it back. that is the exact reason i would like to won one.

But there have been an inordinate number crashed on corners, I am sure its stable in a straight line.

Considder me corrected.

yes amd they did make a lot proving a raw car has appeal. what is the price on these?

 

As you said youre a racer, all about objective performance, and that is a market segment. it doesent mean the other market segements are invalid. No one buys a 308 for objective perormance, they buy them for the shape and the love of the drive.

A Maclaren F1 is not as fast found a track as a MP12, but most of us woyuld rater drive the F1 for the sheer experience of it. Different criteria to you.

Its not about one or the other being valid. This debate as it relates to the Mclaren seems to say only one way is the right way. We can have different versions of the same car serving different market segements. there is a reason why the very analogue ford Gt appreciates and its not just the looks.

 

Amen.

 

There's already 4 spiders for sale on Cars.com, the lowest being 290K. It's tough to buy a new 458 spider for $300K. Used go for at least $360K when you can find them. So, this is a great value -- yet it's disturbing to see 4 already on the market in just a few months.

This really surprises me. I don't understand why people are buying these and returning them so quickly.

Also, the first 2013 shows up with delivery miles, so the shipping of product directly to in the USA continues for some strange reason -- and at the bizarre price as a near new Spider.

Note to McLaren:

1) The 13 Coupe is 30 grand over it's value if you can get a practically new spider for the same price

2) It seems you are still sending unsold product to the states so you haven't learned much from 2012.
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Back on topic....I think a Macca 12C will make a great track car...Its durability still needs to be proven however as this is a new engine and gearbox combination.
Also its viability as a mass produced (3000+ per annum) supercar remains to be seen concerning the sustainability of its dealership network. I realize here in the states, as elsewhere I am sure, they are usually incorporated with an existing high end franchise.