David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Nope. No matter how many times you try to spin it, it's exactly the same thing as 0858.

0858 left the Ferrari Factory as 350 Can AM converted by Ferrari from a P4.

There are cars that left the Ferrari Factory as Series II 250 GTO's that Ferrari converted from Series I 250 GTO's.

There is no difference from what is being done to 0858 and taking a car that left The Ferrari factory as a 250 Series II GTO, that was originally a Series I 250 GTO that Ferrari converted, removing it's original Series II GTO body and fitting a replica Series I 250 GTO body.

None.

 

No contradiction whatsoever. If a human being has an organ (the detail) transplant they are still the same person.

 

There is a very clear contradiction in your post between "Not changed significantly" "Some details did change, some irreversible"

By nature those two phrases contradict each other.

Last time I checked I dont look like either a 350 Can Am or a P4 so comparing humans to cars perhaps isnt the best comparison

 

Incorrect Typo non original engine which shares the same serial # with David's "0900".

Incorrect Typo non original gearbox.

Incorrectly made replica body.

Modified chassis.

"It's just a scratch!!!!"

 

+1 to this

 

True, True.

 

All minor details, just minor...no problem there. While we are about it, lets go and add some colour to the Mona Lisa, always thought the painting was a bit dull, it would be the same, just the details would be different.

 

Let the market speak! Soon it will.

 

I have to agree with "Ferrari 360 CS", the chassis of a 350 Can Am was based heavily on the chassis of a P4. We are talking a simple tube chassis, nothing complex.

It would be interesting to know what the difference actually is. I imagine it relates to tubes that hold on to the bodywork and not much more, otherwise Ferrari would have been forced to have started with a clean sheet design.

Basically the fact that they warmed over a P4 to make the 350 Can Am shows how little Ferrari were interested in the Can Am series; and the lack of results followed.

Now I very much would prefer a P4 as I'm not a fan of the 350 Can Am, but I wouldn't convert one ... I'd just buy something else. And yes the owner has bought a very expensive white elephant that he cannot move (maybe didn't do enough research?) ... it is suffering what many slow moving units on second hand car lots have to go through, equivalent of a resale red paint job.
Pete

 

My personal opinion is the market for a restored, fully running 350 Can Am would possibly be bigger than for a non Classiche converted Can Am into a P4 but I am sure many, many people would disagree with me.

 

Jim, you've changed what you said. The above refers to the 4 rebodied 250 GTOs whereas what you said first refers to the 3 ORIGINAL Series 2 GTOs that were not rebodied from Series 1 cars.

Ok, let's talk about your reworded statement. There is not the same motivation to rebody one of the 4 rebodied S2 250 GTOs as it would be a side step. Some even see the S2 250 GTO as the more beautiful car. The difference in how people perceive the Can Am car to a P4 is hugely weighted towards people preferring the P4 in both aesthetics and its history.

 

I dont think history is not about what people prefer but rather what was, history is filled with events people would have preferred didnt happen. Fact remains the car stopped being a P4 when it was converted to a 350 Can Am, the "minor changes" were not so minor.

Tell me how can one weigh the history in 2013 on a car that was an orginal Can Am, as it left Ferrari to a car that was converted in England to be a P4, the former has clear Ferrari roots, the latter not so much. Had the car been sent to Italy and converted there the "history" would have been greater.

At the end of the day history should be preserved when it comes to historic cars, has history been preserved in this case?

 

Nope. No matter how many times you try to spin it, it's exactly the same thing as 0858.

0858 left the Ferrari Factory as 350 Can AM converted by Ferrari from a P4.

There are cars that left the Ferrari Factory as Series II 250 GTO's that Ferrari converted from Series I 250 GTO's.

There is no difference from what is being done to 0858 and taking a car that left The Ferrari factory as a 250 Series II GTO, that was originally a Series I 250 GTO that Ferrari converted, removing it's original Series II GTO body and fitting a replica Series I 250 GTO body.

None.

 

Exacto.

 

it is not about perception, it is about fact. One could perceive the Mona Lisa as being prettier as a blonde but today, in this world, it is fact that a blonde Mona Lisa is non-original. Even if Da Vinci painted her originally as a blonde but decided to make her a brunette after all.

 

and even then would be questionable against the other P4's and 412P's.

 

Ding ding ding we have a winner.....obviously this is very subjective, but I doubt you'll find many people with a slight bit of taste that prefer the aesthetics of the CanAm over the P4. Meanwhile the SII GTO is IMO just as impressive looks-wise as a SI.

Sometimes its just that easy.....the CanAm was a lame effort by Ferrari and quite ugly too. Seems like a no brainer to return the car to its most glorious state. With its mostly original chassis and at least period made engine and drivetrain the restored/rebuild/recreated car will have more genuine Maranello content than most other surviving "original" Ferrari race cars today. Of course a better effort should have been made at recreating the body but thats another seperate discussion.

Im also quite surprised with the infatuation about original components here......with street cars that seems perfectly understandable, but those race cars were constantly damaged, modified and rebuild during their lifespan and every year a couple of high valued cars get wrecked in historic racing and rebuilt around a chassis number with mostly little harm to their market value. Suddenly most guys here seem so overly concerned with preserving every original Ferrari panel in those old racers, then on the other hand you see very few threads where owners get flamed for racing and possibly damaging their precious old race cars.

 

The car should be respected and awknowledged for what it is. Not for what it once was and not for what someone wants it to be.

Returning a car to its most glorious state, shouldn't contain more than applying the livery in which it was most succesful. Anything more is too much.

Imagine 0858 as a 350 Canam in her Team Gunston colors. How that is not more preferable than 0858 with a (poorly done) replica body is beyond me.

 

Someone at a small but highly recommended workshop constructs a lovely cubus out of genuine mahogany. They use it to show their skills to customers.

After one year a customer wants to have a bowl out of the very same piece of mahogany. At the workshop they make the bowl out of the genuine cubus and they deliver it to the customer calling it a bowl.

Some decades later a trader has the bowl and knows that it once was the original cubus with which the workshop showed their skills to customers. People remember the cubus and still adore it so the trader thinks the value of the bowl will increase when in some way or another the bowl is changed back into a cubus.

With a mixture of epoxy resin and mahogany dust someone adds corners to the bowl to more or less the exact measurements of the original cubus.
Now where do we end up with?

 

+1

 

The cubusgame reminds me somehow of Herman Hesse's Das Glasperlenspiel. I've read this thread twice from the beginning. What has occured to me is that an answer depends entirely upon the perspective of the viewer. History is a process but it is also a snapshot in a time continuum. What we have in David Piper's Ferrari - we can all agree that whatever it is or whatever it was or whatever we call it, IT IS a Ferrari! - is an historical object. Each of us brings to his perception of that object his own knowledge, greater or lesser, of Ferrari's own history of building race cars from scratch and rebuilding race cars from wrecks AND his personal knowledge, greater or lesser, of the quite extraordinary history of this particular race car, its various components and pieces and its various iterations. Add to these factors his own predilection regarding the relative importance of the car's performance, appearance, etc. One thing is certain: no iteration of this car whatever will restore it to its original ANYTHING. So it seems to me that everyone who has opined here is correct according to his own snapshot view of where he wants the car to be. Just as there is no wrong answer there is no answer that will be right for everyone.

Just my 2c.

 

I think there's a misunderstanding on what the word "original" means when describing cars - specifically vintage Ferrari race cars.

1.) A series 1 GTO that left the factory as such can be considered an "original" GTO. If it remained that way until 2013 then it is probably worth the most money out of any Ferrari, given the way the market has worked out, so far.

2.) A series 1 GTO that left the factory that way, raced for a few years, then was converted into a series 2 GTO is no longer an "original" series 1 GTO. It is, however, an "original" series 2 GTO. Why? Because the conversion was done by Ferrari, in period. It is a Ferrari creation, there is no doubt about that, therefore it is an "original" car. If classiche is considered the arbiter of this sort of decision in today's market, then that just proves my point, as S2 cars - as far as I know - are all considered "original" S2 GTO's by Classiche, regardless of whether they were built from scratch as S2's, or converted from S1's.

4675GT is just as "original" a S2 GTO as is 5571GT. Different manufacturing methods, but "original" Ferrari 250 GTO series 2 all the same. If both went to market at the same time, in similar condition, the price would be similar enough. Race history would have a much more important effect on price difference than method of manufacture.

Say every single S2 GTO were converted from an S1. Would you say there are no "original" S2's? Of course not. This is the case with the 350 Can Am.

3.) If, for instance, 4675GT was bought and re-converted to an S1 style body, it would cease to be an "original" S2 GTO. It will also not be an "original" S1 GTO, and Classiche would treat it accordingly. So would the market. Say it were put up for sale at the same time as an "original" S1 GTO, I would bet the latter would command the highest price. By a significant margin. This is basically what is happening to 0858. Except in the case of 0858, the modifications are a lot more extensive than those made from S1 GTO to S2.


When 0858 left the factory in 1967 it was an ORIGINAL 330 P4 - including, in order of importance: correct, P4-appropriate-tipo chassis, engine, gearbox, and body. After the factory decided it wanted to run the car in Can Am, it converted the car, modifying chassis, engine, gearbox and body. The modifications were extensive enough that Ferrari designated it a different name: 350 Can Am. At this point it ceases to be an ORIGINAL P4, and becomes an ORIGINAL 350 Can Am.

When Talacrest buys the car, then sends it to David Piper to be fitted a replica P4 body so that they can flip it for a higher price, the car ceases to be the last ORIGINAL 350 Can Am, and becomes a 350 Can Am with an incorrectly made P4 body being called an original 330 P4 - all due to the car having been called that before it was irreversibly modified into a 350 Can Am. Ferrari have determined that the result of this transformation is not deemed worthy of being called original - nor is it even "of historical interest" according to them. But they have commercial interests vested into their Classiche program, so that must be taken with a grain of salt. Having said that, they have recognized Jim's 002C which was not restored through them as I recall. This car in its transformed iteration probably wouldn't be eligible for any respectable concours event - almost certainly not Pebble Beach. That weighs against its originality, too.

Bottom line, it's no longer an ORIGINAL anything. And from what I gather, even if the Can Am body is re-fitted, Piper is making modifications that will need to be unmade if it were turned back into a 350 Can Am, so it will no longer be able to be called "original" with any sort of authority. That's the saddest part. It being a prototype means it has to be treated differently from a road car, and especially from a human being and its organs. Each particular prototype has its own race history and a specific set of variables that determine its value. Restoring a rebodied road car is one thing, restoring a factory owned and modified prototype is quite another.

 

As I suspected the strip is not permanent but a bridge to hold the side supports in place of the not yet fitted side windows. The sills of the car are as they were in P4 configuration and have not been altered.

All in this thread saying that the body is being poorly made are making that statement out of total ignorance. The body isn't even finished yet.

 

If one wants to legally use the car on the street, it would probably be preferable not to have the can-am body.

 

All fair enough, lets run with the non - original but take it to step 2, what is a non - original but linked (born as, modified, started life as) what ever adjective you want to use 330P4 worth more than an original 350 CanAm. In Jim's eyes it isnt worth more but for some buyers anything even casually linked to 330P4 would be worth more than a fully original 350 CanAm