Replicas, why bother ??

One day if you ever are in the position to buy an old Alfa or Bugatti, I'll remind you of this comment of yours as your experts struggle with whether it is an original or not and what you should pay.

And yes the waters will be muddied one day. Maybe not by the original Pursang owner but by future owners after the car has been crashed, etc.

It is happening already with early 70's Alfa GT's being converted to GTAs and then miraculously having a real chassis number. All good fun and no real harm, except for the poor bugger who has owned the original car for many years. Many don't even know this has happened for a few years and all of a sudden THEY have to prove their car is original. Totally unfair and WRONG!

Why do they do this? ... because there is a buck to be made and lets remember there are people on this planet that will sell their own daughter into prostitution to make a few dollars so don't tell me this will never happen. It will and does.

AND if a Cobra replica owner had some chance of his car having some improved connection to a real car it would happen there too ... heck it is human nature and we ALL want our property to be even more awesome. I've been desperately hoping to find a roll cage mounting point on my Alfa 1750 GTV that I am restoring indicating it had a more interesting history than being a mere road car .
Pete

 

ac enthusiasts would have.
Pete

 

But it is the REAL chassis number that is the coverted piece. Then while it might be a replica it is still a real Ferrari, making their replica that little bit more special ... so sad. I've read articles in New Zealand classic car mags about a GTO that was made out of a GTE and they constantly referred to it as a real Ferrari ... w@nkers.
Pete

 

Some of you guys like to lie to yourselves because you just don't like the idea that you want or own a car that is not the real deal. I don't even care if the car company sanctions or licenses it.

It diminishes the experience of every one who owns a real one. That should not be doing that to those who own or have bought their products. It's a cheap way to make a buck and hurt loyal followers.

Lets say that Ferrari authorized the remaking of 512 Boxers. And they made sure that the bodies and details looked original.

Next week, 10 fake 512 boxers drive down your street, complete with Ferrari badges.

You drive your original and someone yells at you: "is that an MR2 with a body kit?"

You don't think someone who is looking at buying a boxer would say: "why should I buy an original. I can get a factory authorized fake one cheaper." And that won't effect resale values for real 512 owners?

Don't tell me it would mean nothing to you. We don't believe it.

It's always the people who are not affected by this practice who defend it. What a surprise.

 

Actualy allegretti which is in the outskirts of Modena will build you your 50's ferrari of choice or even an alfa T33. Using many of the original craftsmen or their apprentices and taking sheets of aluminum to wooden bucks with little hammers just like scalieti did it. Then there are companues casting blocks heads, gearcases you name it. True a "real recreation costs 300-500k.

 

Yes, but no die and press was involved. Wooden bucks yes but they are unlikely to be the original wooden bucks.

A die is the forming tool part of a press. Ferrari didn't press body shells until the 70's I think.
Pete

 

There is the other side TheMayor too, ie. who wouldn't want to make their Cobra replica even better buy purchasing off eBay a supposedly original part, maybe rocker covers or wheels or steering wheel, etc. Thus the owner can say to his mates: "This X is actually a real part, pretty cool heh"

One day this car gets sold and this real part also helps here (maybe the owner has died and the wife or kids are selling it, all they can remember is something was original) ... then the waters muddy and in some cases that grows to more of the car and so on ...
Pete

 

Do you know what is funny about this thread? Those who have the real thing could care less because, well, they have the real thing.

Guys, these are cars. They are machinery. Wheels, motor, body work. They don't feel. They don't love. They don't care.

Now, dogs, on the other hand, are real. I would give up all my cars before I give up my dogs, even when they poop in the house.

Dale

 

The fact that I own a ferrari means nothing to me. Actualy thats not quite true the fact that there are so many people driving ferraris as rolex acessories makes me somewhat embarrased to tell anyone of taste or modesty that I have a ferrari, untill they see its an older one and grey. The fact that I drive a Boxer means a great deal to me because I love the way it looks and goes.

Frankly I could give two hoots what other people think it is, and in fact the beauty of the grey color is that most people have never heard of a boxer and when they see my grey one pass them by they dont give a second glance which suits me fine. Occasionaly someone who knows, notices and that is thetype of person who is into cars and I am very happy to talk to them about cars in general or take them for a ride.

And you know if ferrari made new ones I woudld be happy to know people are enjoying boxers, its not like they are going to make 10's of thousands. My original one will be worth more because its age confers something, and I might buy a new one to use hassle free.

You know Aston made 4 more DB4 Zagatos right? And one just sold at auction for 4 million, so I thin recreations have acceptance. You also contradict yourself, you objected to recreations because you said it was theft, but if a manufacturer does it It cant be theft but you still object.

The only type person who might feel that the enjoyment of their original was diminished by a recreation is a poseur **** who bought and original for its value and what it represents to others, as opposed to what it is. As I said more than a few of the owners of old build pieces GTO's Dtype Ctypes etc have recreations to enjoy the drive with.

No one with a recreation is trying to pretend anything. Actualy they are the more authentic enthusuast, they are enjoying the thing for what it is, as opposed to what it represents or its value, as mostly recreations sell for less than their build.

But i guess if owning a great car is a value representation to you, its hard to understand that some people enjoy these things for what they are not what they represent. So if you have to have a red ferrari with sheilds just to make sure everyone notices then I guess you fear reacreations. Me I like to drive and I am into all types of quality machines from hot rods to good cobras to early 70's tranams, to new mustangs to e types, to some porches to a new Dodge Challenger. Theya re all great and a great experience to drive.

What ruined old cars is when they became an investment. recreations brings the hobby back in, the tye of person who drives a recreation is the same type of person who bought aclapped out 250 swb in 1970 and got it running even though it was an old obsolete car, they did it because thye were into the experience it could confer, the machine at the time represe nted nothing to the money corwd. the same person today who is intot he machine makes hos own copy.

 

If you are buying an old car and cant tell if its "real" then dont buy it. If people are surprised by what they bought it just shows how ridiculous the whole debate is. If you drove a GTo for 20 years thinking it was "real" and then discovered it might not be, the only harm was to your wallet. from a driving perspective it was and is a GTO, hence recreations are good, and sanctioned ones are known and did not destroy and original lesser car. Plus as your post points out many so called original cars are not, many even with undisputed provenance are just an old data plate, or even a new dtata plate with old provenance. A GTO is GTO, period built ones are just worth much more, new build ones are driven much harder as originaly intended.

 

Yes...sorry about the semantics regarding the die and press....I guess I meant to say that the panels are made with the same "process" as the originals.

 

Me, leaning back and puffing on a pipe, "Now, tell me when did you first start having these masochistic fantasies?"

Dale

 

A no. If someone owned a replica 458 spider that I paid $320k for, I'd be upset. I'd be even MORE upset if Ferrari officially sanctioned it or allowed it.

If I bought my GF a Chanel bag and down the street were authorized fake ones that you can't tell the difference, I'd be damned angry Chanel let me pay $4000 and let someone else pay $200 to someone because they can't afford the "real thing".

 

Dogs can be cloned, cars can't.

 

What about the case of the owners of real GTA's that then have to hire lawyers to prove that their car is actually the real one.

What are your thoughts there?. And it is not always easy to prove, especially if your car has been in a barn for 20 years and is half way through a restoration and the other car has been out at classic racing events.
Pete

 

Why? I'm curious. It's just a freaking car. If you paid full retail for your car, you clearly felt that it was worth it. Why should it matter what anybody else thinks?

A quick story. When I had my Maranello, I drove it almost exclusively on back roads in BFE. Once at a "Deliverance" gas station, I had an ol' boy come out and axe me, "what da **** is that thang?" I replied, "Look, I probably shouldn't tell you, but this is the prototype for the new Camaro." "S-h-i-i-i-i-t, was all he said.

Dale

 

You keep your hands off my ****ing dogs. Dems fighting words.

Dale

 

Justifying replicas is like justifying Chinese counterfeits stealing intellectual property, torrent downloads, copying cds, fake paintings and so on.

Now there are painters who made a name and a carrier from replicating important pieces but in the more common use replicating is not much different from stealing.

Imagine when 3d printers will become more advanced we'll be able to print a gto as well as any other new design ferraris.

Not fair on the company and the buyers.

 

I think at age 5 or 7.

Of course I had no idea that the torment associated with an old car could be so long lasting and deep, but I always suspected the pleasure part was better than what I might imagine.

In so many ways its better than expected, how many things in life which you attain can you say that about.

the trick is only to drive the boxer on the right day, on the right road, when you are in the right mood, then its sublime. Oh and a pile of money to bring it up to snuff(no pun intended) and keep it going properly.

You also need a very good boxer therapist who can not only work on the car properly, but deal with an mechanical ocd owner who wnats perfection in operation from something built in italy in an era when perfection was a term only used to describe women.

 

If you are scared of loosing them just keep some of their saliva in the freezer. Jurassic Park didn't teach you enough?

Regards,

Igor Ound the 254th

 

You know that there were copies of ming china made a few hundred years after the ming dynasty that are better and more expensive than the original pices. 1000 years gives a lot of perspective.

 

You know I glad that I was once a poor hippie. Even though I have made a fair amount of money since then, I learned a lot from those days. Such as, we should all be happy for the chance to drive cool cars. After all, we are all tenants in this life. We own nothing. When we die, we die alone. So why not just dig all the cool things around you in life? Why not just enjoy being alive? Come on, life is too short to have an emotional attachment to cold machinery. Why not just enjoy that next cup of coffee?

~ Jethro Tull

Dale

 

I think it just shows how ridiculous investment money has made the car hobby. Meanwhile eveyone thought the one out there was real. It is real, if you examine it every piece is as it should be on a GTA. The only discussion is one of provenance. Two cars exactly the same, each claiming one data plate.

And how many"barn finds" are nothing more than at best an unuseable pile of rusted bits, but with provenance, which is then attached to a completly new car.

Once again, if recreations are accepted, then they are known and marked as such. then if someone knowingly tries to pass off a recreation as old build its fraud.

The GT40 recently sold at auction, you know theone that had its roof cut off for filming lemans and then burned to the ground. How much of what was sold at auction is orginal to the 60's, I wonder if anything other than a porovenance data plate. We know the bodywork was melted, we know that GT40 tubs dont last over time, and certailny less so after being burned to a crisp.

So if people sre stupid enough to pay really big money for a new car with a period provenance then the whole thing is ludicus and a recreation is the least of the dangers or idiocy.

I think there are a lot of grey areas here, there are new builds with old provenance, there are masquerade cars pretending to be old build(which we all object to) There are accepted recreations and new sanctions.

Fact is like kit cars, recreations are a fact, we should embrace enthusiasm for machines, and govern the process through acceptance so that cases as you mention are rare. one thing for sure, we ar not going to stop the tide. Look at the FIA they have avery enlightened policy towards new builds and old builds, with acceptance of new builds provided they are to spec, they are then accepted and known for what they are.

Since I think most new cars, in fact all the new high end sportscars are boring mobile computer games, (and I really wanted to buy a Mp12 or 458), I am planning on building up a SPF GT40 for medium track work as my 50th birthday present. You know a 50 year old car design with 550 hp. Then when I save some more money I am going for a pursang. I dont think either car willl "fool" anyone. I also think anyone who knows cars or mechanical things will immdiatly be able to tell that these are the "real" thing in terms of build and execution and pretty much everyone I know who is into cars will want a ride. Yes a more modern track car is faster than a GT40, but I am not racing, just going fast and having fun. The mix of styling power ease of maintance and genral performance hits the sweetspot of driving enjoyment for me, at least on bigger tracks. For tighter tracks I have my lotus, which I doggedly keep as both streetable and trackable. In fact if the lotus had not been built by Lotus it would be a great kit car, which is what a 7 is these days, and no one complainds. In fact how many people enjoy a great car because of the existance of caterham, how many drive on track, and an original 7 is worth far mor than a caterham.

Reacreations do nothing except enhance the experince, both for drivers, and spectators. Now is someone is claiming arecreation is aperiod build in your GTA case, that is fraud.

 

So, you paid 5 grand for your wife's Chanel handbag and you find out the guy down the street bought his from a knock off store that Chanel knows about but won't shut down.

And you won't be upset?

True it's just a car. We aren't talking about a car in this case. We're talking money and that's something everyone doesn't like to throw away for nothing.


Fakes and knock offs are ruining the world. They keep hurt and discourage the true artists, damage companies, rob the jobs of people who make them, and steal royalties.

YES.... STEAL.

I don't care if it's a car of a DVD. It's theft or one form or another. There is no such thing as a "victim-less crime". Someone is always hurt.

 

My BS-o-Meter just went off the scale. In fact, so far off the scale I'm putting a poll in the Boxer section to see if your fellow owners think someone making a knock off Boxer would be a good or bad idea.