David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

No idea. miurasv might have an idea, but I don't.
Pete

 

My guess would be less than 50% of their silly asking price.

 

Thanks.

BTW that Meg's a keeper.
But you know that.

 

I was but am no longer. I have no interest in Butchered 350 Can Am 0858.

I agree they should prepare themselves for a considerable loss.

The length of time this has been on offer speaks for itself.

 

1) yes you can. If your pockets are deep enough, it really doesn't matter what the market says.

2) the market isn't always right. If the market dictates that 0858 is worth more as a recreated P4 than it is as a genuine 350 Canam, than the market is clearly wrong.

 

I think it is kinda steep for a recreation. Perhaps also for a genuine 350 Canam, but in the classic car market, genuine should always prevail, no?

 

Does anyone have an informed opinion of what it would cost to commission a complete and accurate replica P4? With an engine and box supplied by Ferrari?

I recon for 25mm you could have a whole 'fleet' made.

This consideration would not enter my mind normally, but in this case the outcome of the 'restoration' is, in my opinion, a bitsa. Not quite at the level of what we usually perceive as a replica, but nevertheless, not a P4 either. Therefor the margin has become rather thin, and the step is easily made.

The difference here would be the value of the chassis number.

Until the day 0858 is sold we won't know, and I think she'll occupy the sales-floor for a bit. In the meantime, reputations have been heavily tarnished, and goodwill lost. All that for a carrot on a stick.

Best,

Jack.

 

new body + tubing: 2000-3000 hours let say 200k euro
engine + gearbox: 150-200k?
paint, electrical, some other (new) parts, reassembly, wiring, refreshing parts: 150k?
unforseen: 50k

Non Classiche: 550-650
Classiche: double, maybe even more....but then you have the RED BOOK!

Very rough guess

 

Tom,

Not talking about restoring 0858 to accurate P4, but building a replica from scratch.

Also, even if all work is carried out by Classiche, NO red book as a P4 in either case.

Best,

Jack.

 

With great respect, 'the market' is never wrong. The market is what a willing buyer and seller, at that moment in time, agree to be the purchase price for any item in commerce. In July 2007, a time when 'the market' for a flawless 365GTC might have been at most $275K, my speciale 330/365GTC sold at David Gooding's Pebble Beach auction at hammer price of $345K. Incl commission buyer paid approx $380K. Very oddly there were no bidders in the tent, the only two bidders were by telephone. Had one of them quit at, say, $295K, that would have been the market in that place and on that day. Had there been a few more bidders really anxious to acquire a truly unique - one-of-a-kind car - it might well have sold for quite a bit more. For it was a 330GTC furnished with factory-installed 4.4 litre typ 245 engine built on special order of the Commendatore for his friend Leopoldo Pirelli, Chairman and CEO of his eponymous Company, and therefore designated 365GTC on the engine compartment build plaque. I had personal correspondence with Sr. Pirelli confirming that it was indeed his car that he had ordered personally from his friend, Enzo.

That car sold at Bonhams' Scottsdale AZ auction this past January. Bonhams' estimate was $450K-$550K. Judith and I followed the bidding live on screen and when it got to $450K and paused I said to her I have a feeling that the car will demolish the high estimate. 'The market' for my old car on that beautiful Scottsdale day was $800,000. + buyer's commission.

The market for this P4/CanAm or whatever it may be (BTW, what the eventual buyer perceives this car to be will determine what he will offer) will be whatever amount the interested buyer offers that is acceptable to the seller.

 

1) any astute businessman knows the value of his 8-figure assets. Even if he plans never to sell, for insurance and estate planning purposes, the value is monitored.

2) the free market is the free market. If someone purchases a car such as 0858 for the 'wrong' price, who determines the correct price? The 'experts' who didn't buy it?

 

From scratch to nice correct replica: ~1.3-1.5M euro
Correct tubing and fully hammered/maglios, weldings, 1mm sheetmetal (often used 1.5mm, many historic racing Ferraris and Maseratis now have wrong thickness of alloy), correct body shape, replica dash instruments, seats, wheels, susp uprights, etc etc

 

Yep. Saying this car "should" be sold at 40m when it remains unsold at roughly half that is a bit ridiculous in regards to market value.

 

True.

Totally LOL

 

exactly. The market is a great instrument to determine a price.
The value is something else all together. Even if a P4-recreation fetches a higher price than a genuine 350 Canam, this is no justification to turn a genuine car into a recreation. The market therefor is never the answer to the question whether or not it is 'correct' to make 0858 into something what she once was, using non-original parts and destroying a genuine car in the process.

 

While I agree with the second part, a market of unique objects and few buyers does not operate at full efficiency and will produce anomalous results.

 

David,

From where do you know how many buyers there are? Are you talking about 0858 here, or about the market for a genuine p4?

I think the market works pretty efficiently for all things rare Ferrari, but buyers are discerning and generally would do their homework well at this level. If no buyer has presented himself for 0858 so far, there's a cause, and that is in my book the efficiency of the market. It speaks through its' silence.

Best,

Jack.

 

Good point, however the higher the price, the higher the scrutiny. When completed, prospective buyers will know everything there is to know about 0858 and offer (or bid) accordingly.

 

Jack,
Strictly speaking one buyer and one seller make a market. My point was that with a limited sample size you can't apply market laws with the same certainty as you can with a larger one.

This particular market is one of sophisticated and educated buyers and sellers and does function efficiently.

 

As a rule, but just one lottery winner and.....

 

Ok, what is you definition of "historically correct'? Everytime you ask you get a different answer.My guess is that your definition strictly speaking might exclude every 250 TR,250 GTO and just about every s/n which had been repaired, modified, rebodied etc. 0858 was oriiginally a P4 built by S.F with s/n 0858 and rebodied by S F. for Springbok events and later for CanAm. The Springbok organizers apparently were not concerned about the P4 title but my guess is the CanAm organizers may not have accepted 0858 as a modified P4 and so the title was changed by S F to CanAM still with sn 0858. It's also possible that S F just didn't want 0858 to be known in North America as a rebuilt P4.I am sure there are others out there who can shed more light on this. I don't really like to give the market place the upper hand but my opinion is that 0858 will do much better for sale or auction as "restored as near as possible' to original P4 specs. Despite the Ferrarichat poll I believe there are plenty of us out there who would agree . tongascrew

 

Ditto.

 

The market will speak loudly on this one, why the Can Am didnt sell I beleive probably has more to do with the fact it most likely needed a full restoration and the fact in my mind the market for a P car is perhaps less than the market for a 250 GTO or more road biased car.

Ironically the conversion of 0858 may have raised the value of other P cars.....

 

Guys,

What situation would this create?

A vehicle`s original body (ie from the factory) is a berlinetta.

Is then promptly changed (by which ever team owns at the time) and has all it`s sucessfull racing history as a spyder or a vehicle with glass fibre componets.

Is then returned to berlinetta format by Classische, and for certification.

Does it have a certificate and no racing pedigree, or are you best keeping the car as it gained it`s history (ie not as it left the factory) and no certificate?

Does it have both, if original engine, gearbox and chassis are still in place?

Regards

Jong

 

True. It is a can of worms. That is also what makes it interesting. There is stuff to ponder, to debate and to figure out. Having said that, I have no problem with repairs or modifications (allthough putting in a non-Ferrari engine is a big no no). Some rebodies are perfectly justifiable, for instance when the original body is damaged beyond repair. Case in point is 2735GT. Would it be 'more original' if it still had the Drogo-body instead of the in England made Scaglietti look-a-like body? Even if the Scaglietty styled body is widely considered to be more pleasing to the eyes? The fact that 2735 even was rebodied in the first place, is justifiable since the original body got damaged.

In my view, 0858 was born as a P4 but seized to be a P4 once it was rebuilt to a 350 Canam and named as such. Putting on a brand new P4 body doesn't make 0858 a restored P4. It makes it a 350 Canam with a non-original P4 body. For me that makes the car far less interesing, but I am not in the market. Jim is, and he says the same. I can only hope the market will speak in favor of the P4-rebody. If it doesn't that death of the final remaining 350 Canam will have been for nothing. And that would makes this tale all the more tragic.