Replicas, why bother ??

Allow me to shine in here and explain.

Kitcars to me are a lot of fun. I have had experience with both a Real Lamborghini Diablo 6.0 and a "Replica' Lamborghini LP640 built right here in Southern California.

It's funny how people will bash a kit for being a fake but in reality they can be a lot of fun to build but very challenging and very expensive. So expensive you could probably go out and buy a nice exotic used. Why bother? right.

Well take this into consideration. Can you service a real exotic in your garage? Sure but it will be very expensive price wise and you might need special tools to do a brake job on an Enzo where as an Enzo replica you could get away with it if all it is just an MR2 based car. A clutch on a real Diablo costs about $5k give or take. I could do a clutch job myself on a kitcar much easier(Fiero based) For about $300 or so. Not to mention it will be trouble free. Doing service yourself on a real car however can harm the value and that alone sucks.

People say "They get crappy Resale value" I say if your in it for the resale value then why the hell are you into cars as a hobby in the first place? Bottom line cars are the worst investments! with exceptions but really If I'm going to buy a car Id like to have some fun and enjoy it a bit. I can't stand it when folks will go out and buy a car just to keep it sitting around with intentions of selling it down the road. You're better off investing in some real estate than buying a car if your looking to make some money in my opinion. I keep my hobbys seperated from my investments. Ill probably never see a rate of return on a Lambo but a signifgant heartbreak if I sold my dream car.

Lastly and bottomline Dreams are built. Not bought. Id feel more satisfied driving a car I built from the ground up than if I went to a dealership and bought it. Not only would it make for great conversation but not many people can say they built the whole thing themselves.

Besides I couldn't imagine buying a Real Lamborghini Countach and swapping in a Dodge Viper V-10 engine. Id rather do that to a Prova or Easton Countach than a legit one. It's my dream car at the end of the day and thats all that matters is as long as your happy for lack of better words. Eitherway your bound to attract haters and people who don't understand.

 

You'll be surprised how many "Real" Supercars originally started out being kitcars.

LOL!

So is this really what the argument boils down to is you paid retail price while some average joe doesn't for his fake? And you mad about it?

If all replica's where outlawed than that means fake boobs would also need to be outlawed then to right?

You really shouldn't be acting like an elitist towards replicas. That means you shouldn't have the right to be shopping at walmart. Heck. the computer your using is technically a replica. I bet if I walked into your house id find probably a crap ton of things that are not originally designed but most likely replicating something else.


There's a huge double standard with this. It's ok for some flat chested chick to get a boob job but yet its against one the 10 commandments to properly replicate a million dollar supercar for someone in modern day times to enjoy. It's ok for Mc Donalds to sell Fake food that harms its customers but its not okay for someone to build a Fiero kit car.

I can't keep going.

 

Restoring and replicating are different topics.

If you own a Ferrari 308, and you're appropriating the design of the 288 GTO to make it appear to be something other than a 308, you're using Ferrari's design without license to do so. Ditto turning a 250 GTE into a "250 GTO". Either of these is faking/replicating/forging, etc.

If you have a demolished 308 that you're putting back to as-new condition, you're restoring it. There's no issue with misleading anyone, or with misappropriating a design.

 

See? I told you I would need the "not this sh!# again" card.

I built a replica of a Mark 1 GT40. So who do I pay my royalties? Broadley? He designed it, and I sure don't know all the facts but the rumor is he was none too pleased with Henry II when he left Ford. Ford? They don't even have the rights to the name, that being with Safir and sold under licensing to Superformance. I didn't pay any of these folks so for sure I stole the idea... I guess they can sue me.

Elsewhere on this site you will find long threads of those lamenting the loss of the manual transmission, the increase in size and weight of cars, the difficulties of maintaining all the electronics, etc etc. One thing people are forgetting is that the fact that it is a "kit" gives you ENORMOUS flexibility in getting what you want. I have no concern for any nannies like airbags, traction control, etc. I also would NEVER want to update a genuine GT40 to anything like I would want it to actually be: left hand drive (anyone driving a right hand drive GT40 in the US is a nut), a much better gearbox, EFI, aluminum block, modern brakes, 17 inch wheels (can't get tires for 15s), etc. People can piss and moan all they want but I get more satisfaction out of a parkway drive in a car that I built myself to my spec than I would in a new 458 or equivalent. Because anybody can just go buy one of those, and just about anybody can drive one fast.

 

What a ridiculous post. So, you equate stealing someone else's creativity to plastic surgery? What... did they steal it from the Almighty or from their parents genes?

I'm no elitist. Replica's without permission are theft. You shouldn't condone theft.

 

It hurts the owners of originals.


Does it not matter of the Nazi's stole art in the 30's and the original owners are dead now? Time does not matter in cases of theft. You can't justify it because it happened a long time ago. Theft is still theft.

Get this through your heads: When you copy someone else's work without permission, you're stealing. You might was well stick up a 7-11. That's the way I wish things worked here in the US. And, I'm amazed that people here actually think there's nothing wrong with stealing without permission of ANYTHING, from a Candy bar to the look of an exotic sports car.

In Italy, they crush the car.

Go ahead someone... make your own version of the P4/5 and see how quickly Napolis' lawyers come down on your heads.

 

How does it hurt the owners of the originals?

Stealing an object in one's possession is completely different to creating a replica. Does a print of a Monet hurt the owner of an original? Does a copy of Michelangelo's David somehow hurt the value of the original? No, of course not. Just like a replica of a 250 GTO does nothing to the value of an original and doesn't hurt the company that designed it because they aren't making them anymore.

 

I'm sorry it does hurt. If you own something that is rare and it becomes easily confused with a counterfeit, then the value drops.

Ask Jim if he would like to see 20,000 P4/5 replica's running around the streets. What was "the one and only" now just looks like any other copy.

If a woman has an expensive hand bag and everyone thinks it's probably a fake, it hurts.

Ask any 308 owner who had someone yell at them "Hey, is that a Fiero?" if it hurts.

BTW: A print is not "a copy". No one cares about a photograph of the Mona Lisa. But, if you replicate with every brush stroke and detail to the point that you can't tell the difference and pass it off as the original, you're cheating those who view it or buy it.

If it was revealed tomorrow that the Mona Lisa in the Louve was actually a fake, do you think the millions who saw it would be upset or just blow it off as "no big deal"? You don't think they would have felt cheated?

 

GM got sued by Jeep over the number of slots in their grills! This whole stealing creativity gets real goofy real quick. Lawyers however love this stuff. The more the better for them. Hey that phones got radiused corners! Lawsuit!

 

Not really. I am very well aware of this because I have been a Jeep licensee.

Jeep trademarked the number of slots and the grille shape. It's their right to do so. AM General used it in the original Hummer as a military vehicle. When GM bought them, they turned it into a street vehicle and that's when the infraction came to be. Jeep claimed the GM grille would confuse buyers that it was a Jeep. A judge agreed. The solution was GM to use 9 slots and not seven. Seems petty, not really. Here's why.


They didn't go after only GM. They went after toy makers also. If you had 7 vertical slots, you had to pay up or change it. Most changed it.

Here's the deal: If you do not protect what you own, you will lose it. Jeep had no choice BUT to ask GM to stop. If they let GM do it, then everyone could do it. Then, what's the point of trademarking something if the person who owns it doesn't care?

And, if you make a front grille with 9 slots that looks like a Hummer, believe me.. GM will be on your ass.

 

Michelangelo isn't a company or legal entity.

Ferrari is.

Building a replica of a 250 GTO denies Ferrari the value received for their design. I.e., because Ferrari created the 250 GTO, it created a design that has value in the market. Someone who uses that design without compensating Ferrari is effectively cashing in on Ferrari's design.

OTOH, if you had paid Scaglietti to do the design, and Ferrari decided to go off and build it without compensating you, you might say that you were happy to see someone else making money off your design, because you were just in it for the thrill.

Or you might get a lawyer.

 

If I paid Scaglietti to design a car for me and patented it and did nothing with it and Ferrari then decided to use it 30 years down the line, more power to them. Why would I expect compensation for something I did nothing with during it's patented lifetime and wasn't making any money off of? If I were smart about it and really cared about making some money off the design, I'd offer the design and any manufacturing knowledge I'd learned when I made the thing 30 years prior in exchange for some compensation so Ferrari wouldn't have to re-invent everything and we'd both be better off.

 

Ferrari actually did produce the 250 GTO.

 

Yes, and they last did so 50 years ago. Have they sold or attempted to sell any since then? Could you buy one from them now if you wanted? How long do design patents last?

 

How many owners of real 250GTOs have a replica version? I suspect you'd be quite surprised. I know of at least three, and given those are the only three GTO owners I know, I wouldn't be surprised if almost all own a replica.

I'm told most are used on track days.

Art

 

Nobody is saying to pass it off as the real thing. I certainly wouldn't. I've had people ask if my 355 was a kit, and no, it didn't hurt at all. I guess the difference is that I'm concerned with experiencing the car, not the image of it. For sure, some bad Fiero kits won't devalue my car, nor would a nut and bolt replica (if for nothing else than the fact that it'd cost about 30x what my car is worth to do).

I don't know how Jim would feel about copies of his p4/5 starting 10 years from now when the design patent presumably runs out. To start, the base car will cost $1.5million or so and then the CF bodywork and details another few hundred thousand on top of that. There certainly won't be 20,000 of them running around and everyone would know it wasn't the original if Jim wasn't driving it. It certainly wouldn't affect the value of his car in the least bit if one or two copies came out.

 

Look the solution is REALLY REALLY SIMPLE.

You ask for permission. If you are granted permission -- terrific! If not, don't go make it anyway.

That's all we are saying.

And that goes for a purse, shoes, a handbag, a DVD, a name, a logo, or an exotic car.

I don't see why that's such a difficult thing to understand.

If there is no owner or clear title, then make yourself that owner legally and fire away -- then stop others from copying YOU.

 

Here is a car that I just saw last week. its a re body based on a 330GT. done to amazing standards and contains 100% Ferrari mechanicals, and chassis... the body work is custom. is it a replica? or fake ? owner does not represent it as a 250 TR... but it is a Ferrari.
Its done in period skill and craftmanship. owner has had offers north of $600K. He uses it for his own enjoyment & is the actuall builder of the car. he has worked for may famous racing teams in the Uk... super nice man.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Well, it used to be a classic car. Now it's a phony.

You take an classic gun -- say the Colt .45 -- and then update it or change the patina. Is it worth more or less?

Less. A lot less.

 

Those are the ones I have no problems with.

And know that I was owned a 330 2+2 for a number of years and didn't cut it up.

You get the full experience for a fraction of the price.

Matt

 

Mayor FTW


via rubber ducky

 

Remember the Favre 250GTO replicas? A story says an owner of an original 250GTO bought one thinking he was buying an original one. Ferrari went after Favre and he did like two years in jail for those replicas. I certainly wouldn't mind owning one and those that have driven them say that the experience is the same as the factory works.

 

You are so full of inconsistencies its frightening. A few posts ago you were knocking GT40 replicas. Yet SPF has in your words "permisiion" from safir who holds the license which is still valid.

A number of companies are licnesed by Shelby to make cobra reps. Ironicaly some of these are only a cobra in silohette and not really cobras at all when it comes to ssupension. Yet under your perspective they are OK.

Truth is what you actualy have probelms with is a new build of an old car, licesed or not, because you like the snob value of car prices spiraling up. The rest of us are into the machine for what it is, or should I say what it does as opposed to you who is more into it for what it reperesents and costs. Its the difference between true enthuisiasts and the new breed of I can afford it crowd, and all the better if its an auto, because I am never going fast anyway and a paddle cr#p words better in traffic. Oh and please make sure its red with sheilds because I want everyone to know what it is when I get out wearing my real gold rolex. Give me a break from all the poseur crap, some of us stuill like to drive.

You also had problems with DB4Zagato santion 2's but these were sanctioned by aston, yet the cut up real db4's to do it.

Reality time, recreations are becoming more numerous, there is a market, there is accpetability, from the FIA no less. They dont affect the values of old builds, witness the recors price for an american car 11 mill paid for a cobra coupe, years after licensed by shelby recreations abounded.

As for Licensing, some companues have licenses that are still good, otehres were nver licensed or they have lapsed. What is licensed ona ferrari is the prancuing horse, so yes putting that on your recreation is worng, unless you cut upa real car in which case its ok.

The jeep exampole is like som many of yours a false one. the trademark grill is the same as putting a ferrari badge on say a new hyundai, Refering to all recreations as "fakes" implies recreations are all built out of plastic with humble mechanical bits. You did this in anotehr thread which is diingenious.

In any event, its clear youa re int he intellectual proiperty field in some form so its a raw nerve compunded by your use of cars as status enhancers based on value and brand.

 

You dont even own a ferrari,

Cutting up an old car and putting a new body on it is not missapropriating a design if the design is not protected, its justa crime against an old car. But I guess you are Ok with the aston santion 2 DB4 zagatos because aston santioned them?

I see you have a jaguar. I prefer their enlightened view to the c and D type recreations, it enhances the jaguar myth and desire for its products.

In the Uk ytou can buy every bit for an etype new (including the tub), except the engine block. We know the tubs were built out of rusting tin. So many restorations are not reall old cars at all but recreations.

BTW the new lynxx lightweight etype low drag coupes. No one thinks they are old builds or passes them off as such, great cars though. Same with a lynxx XKSS. I have never heard a jaguar fan who actualy drives cars bemoan a Lynx.

I think the difference in attitude between here and europe is that in europe people tend to really use their classics in the manner intended by the creators of these cars, which honors them, as a car is a motive machine. In the USA there is this obeseesion with concors and judging, even though most concors cars drive like total crap, but the concors is all about possetion and price, a recrreation which is all about driving does not fit the mentality.

In any event taking you at your word, I assume you have no issue with a SPF GT40 because its licensed? Or a Cobra licensed by Shelby even though it conforms to the original nowhere?

Lastly I would say its an exptremly rare occurance wherre someone with a replica tries to pass it off as original, in fact I have never seen it. What i do see time and time again, is a replica with a surviving old chassis plate claiming to be a real car, and people paying huge money for what would otherwise be a 300k recreation because it has an old data plate and claim to provenance. That to me is ridiculousneess beyong imagination, but the market speaks and its their money, justa s there isa healthy market for recreations.

 

I'm not inconsistent at all. I also said that I think it was a mistake for Shelby to grant licenses to make Cobra's as it hurt those with original cars. But, as they were copied and stolen so badly so many times by so many people, about all they could really do is try to get something for it and try to control it. I wonder if they had to do it all over again, would they do it this way. I think not. I think they would have rather made new cars like Morgan forever instead of all the cheap knock offs out there.

But, we will never really know.

I said a company can license out their designs. That's their decision. But, as I also said in this thread, I think it devalues original cars in doing so and hurts those owners who have originals. I said it's a bad idea, but they can do whatever they want with what they own.

And, for those who just want to knock off someone else's car design, that's just theft it was done without permission.

Everything I have said is 100% consistent.




Here's the REAL IRONY of Fchat.

If the title to this thread was "Cheap knock-off replica cars coming from China", everyone supporting replicas here would be outraged.