David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Agreed. I think we can safely assume that if 0858 hadnt sat with WM for decades it would've been returned to P4 looks long ago.....

 

And for that, Walter should be commended. For preserving the history of 0858. One of 3 cars born as the legendary 330 P4. One of 2 P4's converted by the factory into a 350 Can Am.

 

"moreover the committee had decided not to authorize any modification as P4 in order to preserve the only remaining example of the 350 Can-Am."

Maybe the committee made this decision hoping that this would frighten off potential owners and prevent any modification?

As this didn`t have the desired effect, maybe they will be willing to reconsider?

Jong

 

+1

 

Ferrari 330 LM #3765LM is still called a 330 LM or 330 GTO, even though it was converted by the factory to 250 GTO specification in period in which form it also raced and remained in for many years. Even now, after the car was reconfigured to original 330 4 litre spec, but then again converted back to its 250 GTO form it's still referred to as a 330 LM because that's what the car was born as. 0858 was born a 330 P4 so deserves to be referred to and called one just as much as 3765 is called a 330 LM. If not then 3765LM should be called a 250 GTO as that's the form it last left the factory. I do agree #3765LM isn't quite the same as it wasn't rebodied, but did have the letterbox nose for a long time, and it's only one of 2 330LM cars, but it goes to show that people try and justify the facts to substantiate their viewpoint, as I too, am doing here.

 

I disagree, it is not the same, because 0858 left the factory last a 350 Can Am and remained so up till when Talacrest bought it. Different engine, chassis, gearbox and body make it a substantially different automobile from a 330 P4.

The case of 3765 meant a different - 250P type - engine, and a minor change to the front bodywork. Most people know the car is special for being on a modified Superamerica chassis anyway, and for having been mounted with a 4 litre engine. However, this car's most unique identifier is it's SA chassis. To make this a parallel discussion to 0858 you would have to factor in modifications to chassis #3765 , done by the factory, in period, with a clear objective - competing in a different race series. That never happened.

An engine change did.

In the case of 3765, what allowed it to compete in different series was the engine change. And since this car was exceptionally paired with a 250P engine, that is what makes it so special. The fact it wears a correct type but unoriginal 4 litre block today makes it less "original" than if it still had the factory mounted 250P engine in there. If it were re-united with its original 4 liter engine, then the value would probably rise. But in any case, its chassis remais untouched. The point is, you can call it a 330LM or you can call it a 250GTO, but you will never cease to call it 330LM/250GTO chassis number 3765.

330 P4 chassis number 0858 ceased to exist once chassis 0858 was modified to turn the car into 350 Can Am 0858. If Ferrari cared about this kind of thing back in the day, they would have re-stamped the chassis number, making P4 0858 obsolete - because once the chassis, engine block, gearbox and bodywork were modified that's what it became. Obsolete. Of course they couldn't give a rats ass, and so now this whole discussion has come to being.

 

Different engine - No, the tipo 247 is a bored out +208cc tipo 237 330 P4 engine.

Different chassis - No, it's the P4 chassis modified to fit the Can Am body.

Different Gearbox - No, the tipo 603R was used in both the 330 P4 and 350 Can Am configurations as confirmed by Ferrari Classiche.

Different body- Yes, ok.

It is not substantially different at all. It's a P4 in engine and chassis with a few mods that are actually reversible, the same gearbox and a different body that can be easily changed. The car is still essentially a P4.

 

Somebody please say something new.

 

The body of the Can Am was not a total rebody either. It still retained the sills, doors and wheels of the P4, replaced the beautiful screen with a small transparent wind deflector, replaced the voluptuous alloy nose and sensuous tail with polyester hoods. Actually, the Can Am body was a DEBODY, not a rebody.

 

But a nice body none-the-less and one that has now been butchered by a fat cat.
Sad fact really that a piece of racing history is now gone.

 

We have differing views on what constitute substantial changes regarding one-of-a-kind prototype race cars. Therefore I don't think my arguments would bring this discussion any further. I stand by my opinion that 350 Can Am 0858 - a car I like less than the P4 - should have been left alone.

 

Yes, I agree it was a nice body, but the one it's being replaced with, its original form, is the most beautiful shape ever to grace a car. It's an absolute work of art and the automotive equivalent of Brigitte, Sophia, Claudia, Raquel and Catherine all mixed together and reformed as a Ferrari sports prototype racing car.

 

Steve,
I say this with as much respect as I can muster based on, and not limited to, your obvious love for the marque and your many contributions to so many Vintage threads but,

This post is absolute Gibberish.

Best Regards,
Dave

 

I beg to differ, a McLaren M8 is the ultimate Can Am car IMO.
Pete

 

All true Jim, but the "last original" is the part that is causing such passion as I said. Everything else is just details.

If there were other surviving Can Am Ferrari prototypes this thread would have a completely different mood.
Best
Pete

 

Ditto.

Claiming a different Typo engine (THE EXACT ONE NOW IN THE CAR NEVER RAN IN P4 0858 EVEN NON BORED OUT AND MODIFIED INTO A DIFFERENT TYPO AND HAS THE SAME SERIAL NUMBER CLAIMED BY PIPER's "0900") , different typo chassis, different sized fuel cells, different typo body, different weight and balance, different sized wheels and tires, different gearbox ratios, etc. ,etc. than a real P4 and claiming this car a "P4" because of it's Piperisation which includes the fitting of an incorrectly made Replica "P4" Body are insubstantial changes is laughable.

Potential buyers so far have not jumped at the chance to buy Piperised 0858 which is clearly not a P4 despite it being advertised for sale as one which I believe is because they understand exactly what 0858 now is and now isn't.

 

It's not all true at all. The fuel cells are being reconfigured to P4 but to conform with today's essential safety regulations. I hadn't heard that the wheels were different? What evidence do you have that the weight and balance will be different? If there is a difference it will only be from the unavoidable regulational changes. The body is being made from the correct gauge aluminium. They say so in the video.

0858 was not the last surviving Can Am car. There are other surviving Ferrari Can Am Prototypes. 0866 and 1010 still exist.

 

Important Details some of which can not be undone. You can't unbore a block. You could make a new replica proper P4 engine and add it to the list of non original components of this car but as 0858 gets further and further from what it really is it's value drops substantially to the five million dollar amount you feel it's worth which is one fifth of the asking price at which it's languished for a long time.

 

Different types though. So #0858 was the last Can Am left of that series if you like.

And Jim, yes those details cannot be done if the original components were modified ... and that is a great shame. If the originals were put aside then thank God.

I still say if there were 5 original Can Ams of this series left we would be more relaxed. As there isn't its an automotive historical tradegy.
Pete

 

True.

 

Steve,

That's exactly what is being done here, with a lot of plastic surgery, the outcome of the operation not being able to claim to be any of them, and the originals gone forever.

Best put the shovel down before you can't climb out of the hole anymore.

Best,

Jack.

 

+1

 

You may be and probably are correct about the M8.I don't think anyone is trying to claim that 0858 as a CanAM car is in any way equal to the McLaen. Had it been so this might change everything. S.F. was never seriously inolved with the CanAm series and so the half hearted effort with 0858. Let's get behind David Piper who after all really is the great authority on the Ferrari P series. tongascrew

 

Theres been posts made here before about substantial offers for this example.....and thats a lot more than whats been offered for the car in CanAm state. Just saying.

After all we dont know what a "no stories" (ha!) P car would fetch at this moment so who knows if its really the replica body on 0858 that scares potential buyers away or if its just the fact that theres a very limited market for these rare type of birds in general and noone wants a P car badly enough now that he'll shell out $25MM??!!! I vote for the latter.

 

Precisely why 0858 as a Can Am car was unique in Ferrari history. It's representation of a failure as a 350 Can Am speaks more loudly than it's success as a P4 in Ferrari history.

Based on Piper's history as a manufacturer of replica P cars, I'm more than skeptical about "getting behind" him as an authority on anything that can bring him substantial monetary gain.