[Somewhat OT] Why I don't much follow sports car racing - Even Le Mans!...

Hey,

Just posted at Autosport and the core reason I've never become a real fan.... My emphases added.....

Can you even begin to imagine the *howls* if they tried the same BS in F1!?..... Do a better job? Get ****ed. Plus, it seems to me there's myriad ways (fuel capacity, weight and air!) in which they'll **** you!

BOP? Forget it.

And some claim F1 is all about the "show"; They manage to be *really* close when they're all working to the same rules! (Mostly, anyway )

Cheers,
Ian
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107772

 

They could give them 10 liters and they will still be kicked...! Sigh, had to be Toyota.

 

And this is when the endurance racing fans say that this is real racing and look down on F1 fans.

 

Indeed!

They spent more money than God, cheated (in the WRC) and still came up short in both.

Honda and their "secret" fuel tank is the only other such egregious example I can think of.

Any others?

Cheers,
Ian

 

Well, at least endurance racing allows some freedom to the designers, and tries to equalise the chances by the Balance of Power taking into account the various choices (atmo, turbo, petrol, diesel, hybrid, etc...) .

Unlike F1 where everything is imposed (capacity, fuel, engine configuration, aerodynamics, ECUs, tyres, etc..) including the dangerous and archaic concept of open wheels!

When I watch endurance, I see diversity.
When I watch F1, it looks more and more like a specs series.

 

Similar crap everywhere man; just done differently, like William said. Choose your poison .

 

I'd echo most of these sentiments. I do still enjoy F1 quite a bit though.

If there wasn't a balance of power in GT racing then it wouldn't be racing and teams and manufacturers would simply walk away. Generally they do a fairly good job keeping it close and competitive.

>8^)
ER

 

Not just in the "GT class", this is the LMP1 ("Big boy") class!....Seems Audi kicked ass (again), and therefore gets restricted.

The idea that if you suck you get more air/less weight/more cc's is simply anathema to me. Sorry.

"They" is, I guess, my problem with it. IMO, F1 does a pretty damn good job of being "close & competitive" without strangling some & encouraging others. Their playing field is level.

As always, just my 02c,
Cheers,
Ian

 

Sorry, I wasn't being quite so specific - "GT racing" was just a blanket term.

F1's playing field is level because that's what the rules state and it is all very controlled. These other classes of racing allow for more leeway, but in order to keep one approach from totally dominating the others they add weight or restrict air volume or control fuel capacities. It's just different schools of thought to achieve the same outcome.

>8^)
ER

 

A fine & admirable objective.

Which makes the whole thing artificial IMO.....

"Oh, you don't have enough power?"
"OK, you can run lighter than the other guys and/or carry more fuel and/or get more air!"

I guess "diversity" is good. But I'll take Formula one anytime. As long as they design & construct their cars independently of each other it's a *long* way from a spec series.

And if it doesn't have sticky-out wheels it's not a true race car IMO.

Cheers,
Ian

 

My bad. No apologies needed.

To be clear, lets blanket 'em all as "Le Mans cars". There's many (too many?) different classes. I get that.

But again, looking at the supposed "top flight", we see Audi doing well and ergo the others being allowed to have more air or fuel etc.

+1

As it needs to be.

Understood. It's not true racing though IMO - I really don't want my racing to have any predefined outcomes!

Cheers,
Ian

 

You'd be in for far more predefined outcomes if there wasn't a balancing of power - there has to be some controls. You must understand this?

Additionally, these series attract manufacturers who want to develop and showcase technologies that matter to them. Audi and then Peugeot brought diesel racing to Le Mans because that was what mattered most to them. Toyota has less interest in developing diesel powerplants and prefer to continue racing with gasoline. There's no way you can have both in the same class of the same event without placing some limits or allowing some variations on aspects of the cars that contribute to their performance and economy.

Diesels From Audi and Peugeot at Le Mans - Why Audi and Peugeot Diesels Rule the Le Mans Raceway - Popular Mechanics

>8^)
ER

 

+1

If F1 was a spec series, or even close to it, we'd see the odd Caterham/Marussia winning every now and then. So far they're yet to score a point. This is their 4th season!!!

 

OT:

I am rather tired seeing Audi winning everything constantly since the early 2000s. A diesel simply doesn't belong in racing either.

 

Why can't they simply set a HP limit per class and let them all have at it? I seriously don't get all the fine tuning of the regulations. Want to run a diesel? Fine. Want to pack as much fuel on board as possible? Fine. Let the team decide the trade offs and wave the green flag.

 

Because at that rate everyone will be running diesels with infinity fuel tanks.

IMO set engine size limit per class, RPM free, configuration free, pump octane (98-100) petrol only.

I loathe the diesels.

 

There was a time when covered wheels were allowed in F1 and a couple of teams tried them out and guess what: They voluntarily abandoned them again.

And I'm glad they did. It is part of what makes F1 F1. Along with the open cockpits and real fuel engines (no Diesel industrial lawn mower or some electric shnickshnack).

I have been to a few endurance races and I do love the access they give to the fans (F1 could learn a lot from them in this regard).

But I don't like the series per se for the reasons others already mentioned: Predetermined winners by fuel formulas (I spoke once to a Le Mans racer and he told me flat out that the governing body was handing the win to Audi when they run Diesels for the first time and sure enough that's what happened).

And anybody who followed our very own Glick's attempt at racing on the Ring must be totally disillusioned about the fairness of endurance racing: Castrated his engine to the point where the car had no more chance of getting anywhere. I applaud him for trying but that group didn't deserve the presence of a Ferrari.

 

I agree with this.

at this point, not only are the cars more technically sophisticated in WEC prototypes, but BoP makes the racing better too (moreso in the GT classes).

now F1 is in the perilous position of being both technically and competitively outclassed. oops. although to be fair the racing in F1 has been pretty good the last 3-4 years.

 

Well, it's probably the same in F1 as well. I'm tyred of it

 

Yes & no!

Of course there needs to be rules. And multiple classes to ensure full grids etc. Control is fine, I'm used to that in F1 after all!

What irks me is after the first two races of the season Audi's kicking ass again so they, basically, change the rules right under 'em.

For what? To keep 'em close and improve the all important show I guess (?) Again, I understand the need for "equivalency" rules to allow diesels and gas (etc) to compete. I'm sure they have a pretty good idea of what that should be by now. But this micro-management is just wrong to me. An extra 3 liters of gas! Porsche gets more air! The hybrids get more gas, but not as much as the pure petrol cars. And so on. All because Audi spanked 'em and the new Porsche got beaten.

Do a ****ty job? No problem, "they'll" be along soon to help you out!..... Anathema I tell you!

As I initially noted, can you imagine the howls that would ensue if, eg, Marussia & Caterham were given another few hundred cc's or allowed to run lighter than the others!?

+1

OTOH, while I hear you, I've never liked "HP limits". I do a better job, I "deserve" more power, damnit! I presume they don't split, eg, LMP1 into LMP-diesel and LMP-petrol as there's not enough entries? So, they try and make them equivalent. Fair enough. But these tiny tweaks all through the season are just flat out wrong IMO. That's not racing, that's show business....

Cheers,
Ian
PS - Thinking more (uh-oh! ), given the nature of the series maybe HP limits are not a bad idea..... I dunno, RWHP of, say, LMP1 ~800HP. LMP2 (are they still running?) ~600 and so on. Throw a rolling road dyno in the scrutineering bay and off you go. How you get that HP is up to you. How much gas and air you use is up to you.

 

With respect, you're joking, right?

I agree they're sophisticated pieces of kit and I do like the different classes. But outclassing F1? Not in a million years. They'd be completely blown away by an F1 car. Even with the "weak & quiet" engines of today!

Anyone know if they ever run on any F1 circuits? I'd bet the lap times aren't even close! And that's fine, they've got to last a continuos 24 hours after all.

Cheers,
Ian

 

Right because F1 regs have never been changed to help out other teams. 2005 tires anyone?

I'm telling you if the next gen. F1 cars are 550 HP as speculated, they will be so slow it will be embarrassing for the sport.

 

+1

As long as F1 are faster than anything else, I really don't give a damn about endurance racing.

And the FIA's rules will continue to assure that this remains this way.

PS: That said, as Button commented: With the current tires the GP2 times get dangerously close to F1. 2 seconds difference around Barcelona is not a whole lot to be crowned king by.

 

Very true. I haven't checked, but wasn't he also comparing their pole time with "his" race pace? I could be wrong, but that's not quite as bad!.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

Sorta. Pole times were still worlds apart, but race laps was the 2 second difference. This was only because the F1 teams had to save their tires, not because the cars couldn't go faster.

It does show however that F1 teams are fighting with one hand tied behind their back.