David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

David doesn't own this car. He's simply being paid to butcher it.

 

They did and so far buyers aren't rushing to see the remake.

 

True. They are.

 

Are you in contact with the owner Napolis?

 

AFAIK the owner is HL and the car is being sold by JC. I don't know either well. I believe that HL sold 0844 bought 0858 and decided to go this route with JC/DP. The car is listed for sale on JC's site.

 

There's also the issue of the motor/wheels and tires.

The motor in 350 Cam Am 0858 as Ferrari clearly stated and it's serial number clearly shows in addition to being a different typo motor NEVER ran in P4 0858. This typo motor has more HP/Torque and revs higher than original P4 motors. Ferrari realized that to harness this additional power they needed different sized wheels and tires and fit them to 350 can Am 0858. Many years ago David tested tires for Firestone and fit these Can Am sized wheels to 412P 0854 and modified 0854's replica fiberglass tail to encompass them. This is the issue with stuffing wider wheels into a P4 tail as you can't without modifying the original P4 shape as our friend Pete noticed when he commented on the wheel well of Piperised 0858.

You could fit properly sized replica P4 wheels but with a 350 typo Can Am motor I wouldn't recommend it especially if you plan on driving at speed.

 

OK, so you are not in direct contact with the owner Napolis?

 

Do you have any details on the sale of 0844? I know that HL had a high cash offer for it a few years ago that was turned down. I don't recall if I discussed that with you Mr. Glickenhaus but would be glad to share what I know.

Do you know where 0844 is now?


Respectfully,


PDG


Posted from Ferrarichat.com App for Android

 

After 0844 crashed the guys maintaining it for HL contacted me to buy a gearbox case but I declined selling one of my Original spares but did offer to have a new one made for them them and also told them that someone in the UK had CAD'd a case and maybe he would sell them one.

I later was told by a credible source that HL sold 0844 and bought 0858 which I posted a while ago. I don't know the price or who now owns 0844. At the time I assumed HL wanted 0858 for himself but as it's for sale through JC I guess not.

If you or others know more or that any of that is wrong let us know.

 

Well put! tongascrew

 

There seems to a real lack of knowledge of what David Piper means to the provinance of the P series Farraris and European road racing I would encourage those against what he is doing with 0858 to take the time to go back to the late 1950s and follow his career forward thru the decades. David Piper was a giant in his unuque own way with these cars and did so strictly on his own.He was never a part of any factory or independent team effort other than his own. When he arrived at a track all those racing against him knew that to win David Piper's car had to be considered one that had to be challanged.Until those critical of him today take the time to understand what he has meant to his sport and Ferrari for six decades need to do their homework. Until then their ignorance will continnue to haunt them with those who know the real story. tongascrew

 

I don't recall getting an answer so ill repose the question about the engine. Based on what I've read, and my remedial knowledge of engine overhauling, to return this engine to original specification is a simple matter of re-sleeving the cylinder walls with 1mm thicker liners, and replacing the positions, no? Is there something special about the way this engine was bored out that would prevent an engine builder from putting in a liner that was 1mm thicker? Was the cylinder bored out, or was it a matter of just putting in thinner liners originally, effectively "boring" out the cylinder?

This is a procedure which typically happens routinely although I'd venture to say that vintage race teams typically cheat by enlarging the bore, as opposed to playing fair and shrinking it. Politics aside, it'd be interesting to know the answer for those of us who want to understand the mechanicals.

 

The engine currently in 350 Can Am 0858 is a 350 Can Am engine. Ferrari has stated that it was never in P4 0858. 350 Can Am engines are a different typo/HP/Torque/ displacement/Mechanical FI flow specification etc., etc. than P4 engines.

One could make a replica P4 engine and install it in 350 Can Am 0858 but Ferrari has clearly stated that they would still not accept it as an original P4.

If one wanted to turn 350 Can Am 0858 into a replica "P4" they could make a replica P4 body using the proper techniques, a replica P4 engine, replica P4 sized wheels and tires, proper P4 gearbox ratios for the replica P4 engine, chop off some of the 350 Can Am chassis, etc, etc and wind up with a "proper" "P4" replica built on the rest of 0858's 350 Can Am chassis and other 0858 bits.

 

You are correct BUT. The first motor in 0858 when it was changed to a CanAM car was the last engine in the car when it was still a P4.We don't know the s/n of this engine because S.F changed engines several times during it's life as a Factory P4 and the factory records are ??????. What we do know is that S F increased the capacity of the engine by 200cc Why? As a guess someone, possibly,Chinetti, knew the car would not be competitive without more power. With a record of one 8th place and two DNFs in U S CanAM events this was certainly true. In December of 1967 when Chris Aman imported 0858 to Australia for David MacKay it came with numerous spares including another engine,gear box, trans axle, brakes, and 16 wheels, So what was the s/n of this spare engine? Then in 1968 a least one of these engines capacity was inceased to by another 230cc before the start of the 1968/69 Springbok series in South Africa with Paul Hawkins driving. So before we get to worked up about the engine now in 0858 one can only assume there are no original P series engines available. The engine now in will remain. I can't think of anyone else than David Piper to proceed with 0858. tongascrew

 

If Ferrari did say the above, they may well have meant that the type 247 Can Am 350 4.2 litre engine was never in P4 0858 which would be true but that doesn't mean that the type 237 330 4.0 litre P4 engine that the Can Am engine was converted and bored out from was never in P4 0858.

 

Ferrari has stated many things already, some of them even turned out to be true....

 

The 350 Can Am engine currently in 0858 as Ferrari has clearly stated and it's clear Typo and serial number stampings and TOTAL lack of ANY P4 Typo and serial number stampings prove is NOT correct for nor has EVER been in a P4 even pre bored out. (The exact same 350 Can Am Typo and serial number is also stamped/claimed to be in David's "0900" "P4" Replica.

 

My sources state that the rear wings on 0854 were widened by David Piper to accommodate the wider type 603 P4 wheels. Type 593 and 604 had previously been used on the car which were correct for the P3/412P cars.

 

I have no problem whatsoever with David Piper and his long relationship with Ferrari. I DO have a problem with the desecration of an iconic piece of racing history because someone with big bucks wants his cake and eat it too. Nor do I need to be told about homework or ignorance, because I was around back then to see this car race. The real story is what I have just stated and nothing more.

 

Certain sheep like to think for themselves. Other sheep don't have to agree with them.

Most humans don't like to be referred to as sheep.

 

I agree, and I wasn't even around back then. It doesn't matter. I have huge respect for Piper as a driver. Not so much as a constructor of replicas.

 

Yes, I knew, Steve ;-)

 

I am not sure what his career has to do with the question at hand.

 

Now we know what happened to one of the engines that went with 0858 the Can Am car. Considering what was going on at S F at the time there are many questions regarding engines that proably never will be resolved unless a Classiche created P4 replica engine is created It appears that right now it is going to up to David Piper and whome ever actually owns 0858 to descide the course of its restoration.I can only give my opinion which is that if more was generally known about David Piper there would be more appeciation o his efforts. tongascrew

 

George if you're going to quote me not some mangled version thereof. I agree that's it's likely that the spare 350 Can Am engine you reference was used by David in his "P4" Replica "0900" but why it has the exact same Typo and serial number stampings as the one currently in 0858 remains a Mystery.

"Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong."

"The 350 Can Am engine currently in 0858 as Ferrari has clearly stated and it's clear Typo and serial number stampings and TOTAL lack of ANY P4 Typo and serial number stampings prove is NOT correct for nor has EVER been in a P4 even pre bored out. (The exact same 350 Can Am Typo and serial number is also stamped/claimed to be in David's "0900" "P4" Replica."