David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

would you be interested at all in a Piperized 350 CanAm?

5M for a genuine 350 CanAm sounds very reasonable to me.

 

no joy in Mudville...
CH

 

Hard to say at this point as this is such a mess.

Best

 

To recap, then, we had a seller who had an unknown sum of money invested in a car. We had a buyer offering $5M euros in ready cash for that car. It is possible that this was a greater sum than the seller's out-of-pocket at that point, and that in fact a $5M euro sale would have netted the seller a nice profit. It is also possible that $5M euros would not have covered the seller's out-of-pocket. Both possibilities are speculation on our parts, but I think we can agree that the probabilities favor an assumption that the seller would have made a nice profit at $5M euros. If this assumption is correct, it follows that the seller decided that he could make a greater profit if he or she were to take the car off the market and, rather than sell for the bird-in-the-hand $5M euros, to invest an additional six-figure sum to convert a real deal, 1 of 1, Can Am Ferrari into a replica of a different car. The prospective product of that conversion project is now on the market of $25M USD. Is this about the size of it?

 

Just about it.

When I bid the owner was Walter M who had owned 350 Can Am 0858 for a long time and likely paid a lot less than I bid.

After that HL? bought the car from Walter for 7.5e? and using Dealer JC went down the Piper road.

We shall see.

 

Something I don't remember anyone mentioning here: Jim's bid came a year after Lehman Brothers' collapse and bankruptcy, a contemporaneous hiatus/suspension/collapse in the world financial system and just months after world equity market lows of January-March 2009; the Dow was at a 12 year low of around 6500 (today = 15000, almost 2 1/2 X ). In today's dollars/euros his bid was at least double in value. AND he was bidding in the most hazardous world economy since the 1930s. While it may or may not affect one's view of what the owner and David Piper are doing with this car, for me it places Jim's bid in a quite different context.

 

I can't imagine how they feel their 6 figure re-do raises the value to even half that. In my opinion there is less of a real Ferrari there. You're giving me half the car now, the rest is recreation. Why are you asking me for more money?

If there were ten of these I could see doing a hammer body properly and getting it as close to original as possible while keeping the Can Am body with the car. But at this point the car is part replica.

Sure the P4's are more desired and true the car does carry a decent amount of P4 DNA but this is the last Can Am. And it's history is much richer then just its racing history. Just the fact that WM owned it for so many years gives it a cool bit of Ferrari History IMO.

I would have to guess this will be the end result.

I would hope this will be the end result. But in my opinion that will be a clean ending to this sad P4/$ break in the cars history.

The bottom line of this thread has always been that the Can Am should not have been butchered.

 

Would not the value Walter needed for the car have more to do with how much he needed to pay the Tax department (I believe) than what the car was actually worth?

Therefore we still don't really know what this car was worth IMO.
Pete

 

Here's the first of many articles to come I am sure. An attempt to get ahead of the story and shape public opinion I believe.

Work in Progress: Restoring the ex-Jackie Stewart Ferrari 330 P4 - Classic Driver - MAGAZINE - Showroom

All I can see is 40 years of dust and grease being tossed to the wayside.

BTW: Anyone know how long Talacrest has been advertising in ClassicDriver - quid pro quo perhaps? Nah...

>8^)
ER

 

The article says Piper owns #0860, that is not correct? He owns #0900 when we are talking P4's. The article should have said that #0900 wears #0860's body ...
Pete

 

I seem to recall reading he owned 0900...

 

As predicted it had to happen.....the shaping of public opinion.

 

Note the comment about even using correct thickness alloy, but yet they didn't use correct techniques to shape it.
Pete

 

Which the photo's in that article clearly prove.

Look at the quality of the surface of the original 350 Can Am interior of the cockpit panels vs the Replica "P4" panels. The original hammered panels have a totally different surface then the English Wheel Replica panels.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ferrari-discussion-not-model-specific/409243-replicas-why-bother.html

 

Anyone following this thread shouldn't be surprised by the article.
The reshaping started a while ago.

 

Article, or press release?

Googled the author:

Charis Whitcombe

PR and Marketing Consultant; Freelance Journalist

United Kingdom
Public Relations and Communications

 

As it's a one-of-one, there really is no "market" by which to measure - and so guess it's worth what it sells for?

 

And possible to shape still further, as it has for some w/Classiche which - for an early objector or two - may now be the only place to convert/reconvert/restore this car today. That red book might be cool to have w/this one going forward.

 

You should find some of what you are looking for.I don't know what changes were made in Australia, but Hawkins made several including the body front end,a raised rear wing,orange paint,Team Guston logo on the rear fenders and I am sure others.Piper bought the car back after Hawkins was killed driving a Lola at Oulton Park.Some parts from 0858 went into 0900 before it was leased to Alister Walker. There are a vast amount of details in the providence of this car which there isn't room for here. When the resto in finished more will come out. tongascrew

 

Still waiting for an answer George:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142355877-post894.html

 

Hi Guys,

Regarding my earlier post regarding wheel width.

To be honest, my query was more to do withe the originality of the Can Am as it left Ferrari than to do with the wheel width.

I do believe that wider wheels were put on to the Can Am, but when?

I also believe that the rear engine cover, or whatever you want to call it, was greatly altered to at least accomodate the extra wide wheels.

Consequently, how original is the rear bodywork from when it left the Ferrari factory? Probably only the doors and the lower cills, which have been retained - maybe?

If this is correct, then it leaves the chassis, the engine and the gearbox / transaxle or whatever you want to call it.

If Jim is correct, and I have no reason whatsoever to question him, and the suspension was altered to suit the wider wheels, then maybe the chassis was altered to accomodate same? by whom and when?

So that maybe leaves only the engine and gearbox that are the original, unaltered members of the Can Am that left the Ferrari factory.

As I said in an earlier post, I am a complete novice, so please don`t start having a go if any of my thoughts are miles out, or details incorrect.

Regards

Jong

 

0858 350 Can Am was Ferrari Classiche Red Book Attested in 2009 so the whole car must have been as it last left the factory then including the wheels and their width. Jim hasn't said how wide the alleged type 603C wheels are that he says are on 0858 or stated the source of their existence.

 

Steve,

I`m just guessing here but, I think the alterations were undertaken prior to 2009, which could mean that Ferrari Classiche Red Book Attestation (is that the corect word!) was given to a car as it didn`t leave the factory.

Could that be?

I thought I read somewhere that 0858 had been completely restored in 1994, but I may be wrong here.

Regards

Jong

 

Jong,

Yes, I read somewhere that 0858 was restored in 1994??? If it did have wider wheels than the 350 Can Am specification put on it at some point, the correct type wheels and everything else that may have been changed from 350 Can Am specification must have been reinstated for the Red Book Classiche Attestation to have been granted/approved.

 

As left the factory and as raced by Hawkins could be different but as Ferrari gave a specific 603C typo to the 350 Can Am as outlined in the post George has still not answered it's clear beyond the shadow of any doubt that 0858 is not a P4 nor has been one for MANY years.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142355877-post894.html

Turing Original 350 Cam Am 0858 into a Replica P4 many years later is pathetic as many have pointed out. As an aside the claim that Sir Jackie drove this car, as opposed to what many Historians believe and physical evidence shows, at Brands Hatch is very suspect in spite of what the PR Man/Freelance Journalist's "article" in Classic Driver says as Ferrari Market Letter went into in great detail at the time of the RM auction, stating that this was very unlikely to be true and to date I've not seen a credible refutation thereof. 0858's physically stamped, damage repaired original spyder tail, that was fitted to 0858 during that race, and clear period photographs speak very clearly for themselves. It's pretty funny how that PR man spoke of "perfection" when the photo's he used for his article clearly show the surface of original hammered panels vs incorrectly English wheel replica panels that are being fitted.

"Perfection"? IMO no.

As an aside regarding the wheels I know where a set of 0858's original Can Am wheels are (From the 16 George mentioned) and would be happy to help an owner who wants to UnPiperise 0858 locate them although racing/driving on 47 year old original wheels many not be the best idea. I also have two original rear Firestone Can Am sized tires which I'd recommend using even less.

Regards

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142355877-post894.html

Regards