We Should Never Forget June 4th

Thanks for posting that remembrance. I know that our present generation has no idea what bravery the Navy pilots had in the early stages of the war. The resolve, commitment , and bravery that was displayed by so many, famous and those unheralded, is drifting into obscurity now.

 

I think especially of the VT squadrons, and their sacrifice.
And how one designer's airplane, Ed Heineman's SBD, changed the course of history in 5 minutes flown by incredibly brave (and lucky) young men.

 

It's unfortunate that U.S. torpedoes, both air-launched and sub-launched, were so pathetically bad early in the war. Outside of being sitting ducks, the TBD crews must have realized that even if they made it through to drop their load, their chance of it having any effect would be slim. I had a chance some years ago to meet George Gay, the sole survivor from VT-8, and his story would make a chill go up your spine.

And the Marines with their overweight F2A-3 Buffalos fared no better. Maybe if they had the lighter (and armor-less) versions that the Finns used to such effect, they would have had a chance. It's hard to believe that the Buffalo was originally considered a better fighter then the F4F Wildcat!

Of course, all this low-level action is one reason the SBDs arrived on the scene almost unnoticed and with the Japanese carriers with decks full of newly gassed-up aircraft. It's still hard to believe that less than 6 months after Pearl Harbor, we were able to inflict a loss on the Japanese that was, in the long run, much worse than ours had been. Kudos to the heroes of Midway!

 

Russ, the basic SBD design can be traced back to Jack Northrop and his Northrop attack A-17 and further back to his Alpha and Gamma series. Like the Northrop Gamma Sky Chief. Not to be a know it all but I have always felt that Northrop never received credit for what he did and he did a lot of things that Douglas took credit for. The DC-1 and 2 were mainly Northrop's designs. The Boeing Model 200 Monomail were Northrop's when he worked briefly for Boeing and the similarity can be seen in that design. He created the stress analysis technique for metal aircraft structures that are used to this day. He was a great but unheralded engineer.

 

I can't help but to think of my high school buddy who was a crewman gunner on an SB2C. His dad told me that he was lost when the engine on his airplane loaded up and quit on take off when they were nearing the end of the flight deck. The airplane dropped off the bow and ended up somewhere under the carrier. Typical of incidents that happened thousands of times during the war.

 

I'm still amazed, every time I think about it, or read about it...

that Midway was the 'turning point' in the Pacific war and ocurred just 6 months after Pearl Harbor..

 

That entire effort was orchestrated by men who were dedicated to the successful execution of their individual missions that would most likely be fatal and they assumed that their survival would be a bonus.

 

It's my understanding that while it was not planned in such a way, the torpedo squadrons diverted the attention of the Japanese gunners and pulled the patrolling fighters down to low altitude. When the SBD dive bombers arrived shortly thereafter (more or less coincidentally), they took the three carriers (Kaga, Akagi, and Soryu) completely by surprise, without fighter cover and with many of their planes undergoing refueling on the flight decks.

 

Dale, Dad was Navy too. He was at Mare Island on 12/7/41. A week or so later he was repairing Pearl Harbor.


I recently saw a retired Navy officer interviewed. He said the Navy of 1941 would have taken a row boat into Tokyo harbor if that was all they had .

I believe he was right.

 

Instead, they took a few small B-25's...

and that was only about 4 months after Pearl Harbor.

 

I always remember the 6th, but the 4th goes unnoticed often. Even though I am aware of it, and I'm aware of Ensign Gay, my wifes maiden name is Gay.


It must be the theater, the scope and scale that makes the fourth overshadowed. It was heroic. And it changed the course of the war. Never again was their navy as assertive or effective.

-4 ... Had to rethink things.





Man. I just took another look at the photo in post 1. It seemed almost as if there was a mistake. The men's hats say CV-5 and CV-6. Wow.

 

Not to derail (I grew up wearing out War in the Pacific beta tapes narrated by Walter Cronkite), but as a younger guy and sideline aviation enthusiast, I think of Northrop as anything but unheralded. I can think of few places I would have like to have been a fly on the wall other than when they met with him to show him the model of the B2.

 

How about June 6th? Lost an uncle in Normandy, another lost his leg.

 

I only meant that he was never given enough credit for the things that he did. His flying wing bomber design was destroyed by Stuart Symington when Northrop would not bend to Symington's order to join his company to another and assume a lesser status. He designed the Vega series that was promoted as a Lockheed. He had a heavy hand in the design of the Douglas DC-1,DC-2, and DC-3 and was never recognized for it. He created the stress analysis techniques for monocoque metal structures that is still used. He designed the multi- spar wing that they used and the flanged wing joint that was used on the DC series and the SBD. It was wonderful that he saw the B-2 flying wing flying before he passed on. He was a genius and was never fully recognized for his impact on aviation engineering.

 

Taz, you mention dates just as I have done at times and I have been dismayed at the lack of knowledge displayed by our young people as to important dates in our recent history. I have met too damn many who do not know the significance of Dec. 7 1941 or what happened then! June 6th would not register to many of them except that it is in the summer and maybe school was let out then. It's a shame that so many of this generation have no knowledge or appreciation for the momentous operation that occurred on that date. I went to college with some who survived that invasion and I have good memories of their stories. Looking back at that brief time with them seems unreal now because of the unique personality and awesome quality of the classmen there. Your uncles saw the worst.

 

I spoke to a pilot who claimed after 7 December, they pulled P-26's out of stored crates and flew CAP from Hickam.


Pre-war, the Navy had no funds for better airplanes, torpedos and training. The TBD's allowed the SBD's to come in unmolested. The torpedo squadrons gave the ultimate sacrifice.

 

Apparently, they had no money for torpedos later, either.

Those guys were dropping heavy metal tubes into the water that did absolutely nothing.

Why was that?

A double insult to those brave aviators.

 

I know that a few P-26s fought in the Philippines campaign, with the obviously unfortunate results.

 

As a long time WW2 history buff, especially the war in the Pacific, this is a fantastic read on the history from Pearl harbor to Midway: Pacific Crucible by Ian Toll

Pacific Crucible: War at Sea in the Pacific, 1941-1942: Ian W. Toll: 8580001072173: Amazon.com: Books

Highly recommended.

Here is the review from the WSJ.

Book Review: Pacific Crucible - WSJ.com

 

Another book of interest, though it only covers up to Coral Sea, before Midway. While mainly intended as a color-&-markings book for aircraft model builders, it does have a nice chronology of the first months of the Pacific war:

Amazon.com: PEARL HARBOR TO CORAL SEA: THE START OF THE PACIFIC WAR: December 1941 to June 1942 (Airfile Inform & Inspire) (9780956980229): Neil Robinson: Books