David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Just in case you have missed whose name is at the start of this thread.
A life of Ferraris and far flung races at Goodwood Revival - Telegraph

 

If you haven't read this article, you must.Not only will it tell you something about David Piper but will give you a taste of European road racing in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Two of the most interesting topics show how start/prize money could finance a racing season and that E F gave the s/ns to D P for his three P 3/4 replicas. tongascrew

 

It does indeed show something about DP........it makes the supposed quotes in an earlier post look even more unlike him than they already did, and it shows that his financial attitude towards people who drive his cars is now a bit different to what it was in 2001. (I tend to go with the view of much of the historic racing community in the UK regarding the 917 business, which can easily be found)

In the article I saw no mention of EF and S/N's..........it is well-known that EF gave DP permission to build ONE new chassis for a P4 (to hang his spare bits on); but the current count is up to FOUR, two of which are still lurking engineless and unfinished.

Paul M

 

First I stand by post #864.In 1968 during the time 0858 was in South Africa it was continuously referred to in the press etc as Team Gunston's 0858 and once the body work was even referred to as"*** packet livery" No mention is made of 0603/350 Can Am. Can we assume the car came thru customs with s/n#0858? Yes.David McKay in his book Scuderia Veloce states he bought P4 chassis 0858 We may also assume the car was imported into Australia with s/n 0858.Regarding the RM auction correction, legally350 CanAm Chassis #0858 presumably is what the current S F paperwork refers to the car as.Ok, who there was going to challenge this by showing that the#0858 car originally was a P4 and renumbered as 603/350 CanAm. Nothing new at S F. Did anyone check the chassis? Probably not. And of course the car was a N S.It would be interesting to know what prompted those lawyers to mandate the change Also someone called Napolis has referred to the car as 350 CanAm 0858 when I am sure he knows that 0858 was originally a P4 So let's really face reality that Ferrari s/n 0858 was originally a P4,hacked, if you will, into a failed Can Am car and after several decades in storage should be returned as nearly as possible to its original P4 glory.Even the market place I predict will agree. "love and kisses" tongascrew

 

You mean the market that bought a burned to the ground risen from the ashes GT40 ? yes that market will pay a huge price for the P4. None of which makes it right or correct. The Market pays a far gigger price for a 2+2 250 chopped into a GTO, is price and demand the arbiter of tatset and something being of "value".

This car was turned into something by Ferrari, it lived most of its life that way, it is the last of its kind. The cahnge, lets see the chassis will need some rework, the motor is not correct and it will be atotaly new body. Copmpare that to how it is as a can am car, ie totaly origional can am piece. In theory if you cared about the cars, the value of the thing other than the $$$ you would not change it.

For the money involved if you had to have aP4 to drive just get piper to do a new build tool room copy, it would be slightly less authentic but far less of a vanadalism and probably much more fun to use.

In fact its the snobbery that does not accept recreations for driving that is causing period pieces to losse their identity through restoration rebuilding and a whole host of other ills. This snobbery is built purely on $$$ and seing the vlaue of a car in terms of $$$. While these poeple call themselvs collectors, they actualy lack the sensitivity or taste to collect, What they are is very wealthy people who buy objects in order to project status and wealth.

 

George your continued boring BS remains not true.

"Did anyone check the chassis? Probably not."

Not true and laughable. Everyone checked the chassis, it's modifications and stampings and the stampings on it's engine,uprights, and gearbox and Ferrari clearly documented those stampings and thier typo on their Classiche Document.

"0858 car originally was a P4 and renumbered as 603/350 CanAm."

Not true.

0858 has never been renumbered. It's P4 chassis was modified. It's P4 engine was removed as were other P4 parts and replaced with 603C 350 Can Am NOT 603 P4 typo parts and engine which were correctly stamped as such.

As I am putting George on ignore if someone feels that anything he posts needs responding to by me do let me know.

 

True.

I do too. (re Piper's damaged 917 Replica)

 

Mark Hales - GT40s.com

 

The problem seems to be what was 0858 when it FIRST left the factory? It was a 330 P4. An original 330 P4.Everyone knows this. tongasrew

 

Then I suppose its P4 chassis could have its Can Am mods modified back to its original P4 specification, a P4 engine and other parts returned to their original location. Assuming a P4 body was reproduced(using the planishing method), I don't see how this would not be a P4.
The Can Am project was not created from scratch, its early P4 history/build are quite clear. Whether or not returning it to P4 spec agrees with some folk's idea of what should be preserved or not, doesn't change the fact that it was originally a P4. There are many instances of race cars being returned to earlier configurations/models. Owner's choice really, whether we agree or not. personally, I think the Can Am(unsuccessful though it was) was an attractive design and I would have let it be.

 

Four wins in South Africa and one in France all against second class competition. You can only contrast not compare Springbok racing to CanAm. And that's four wins in over 20 starts. The best result in Can Am was an 8th at Laguna Seca. tongascrew

 

Well said!! tongascrew

 

Thanks. tongascrew

 

Very good post!

 

There can be no question what this CanAm car was derived from. It was derived from 0858 P4.It doesn't make much difference who did the deriving We all know S F did it. And the "old man" was very pleased to be rid of it. Even the great ones make mistakes. tongascrew

 

Isn't false knowledge just a form of ignorance. tongascrew

 

As there are no original P4 engines existent that are available a replica one would have to be made.

The chassis could be and evidently has been modified back.

Other replica P4 parts could be fitted and the final result would be a modified original chassis, a replica P4 body (incorrectly made), a replica P4 engine, other replica P4 parts as previously noted created by destroying the last original 350 Can Am as Ferrari stated and no longer is willing to be part of. It's also possible that this Piperised 350 Can Am won't be fitted with a proper spec P4 engine and will remain a Frankstein Bitsa combination of a 350 Can Am and a P4 replica. Is that result an original P4? Personally I don't think so.

The length of time this Piperised 350 Can Am has been for sale speaks to what others think IMO.

 

Very well said.The same can be said of many areas of collecting these days. Unlike most collectables, cars should be used.One of the problems with a CanAm, it can't be driven on the road. One of the real reasons 0858 P4 will do better in the market place.It will also look one hell of a lot better in the driveway. tongascrew

 

Lets not forget Enzo Ferrari created the 0900 sn and and gave it to David Piper as part of the deal for all those spares to use on his replicas.This comes directly from David Piper himself.Let's also remember many well known factories like Aston Martin, Fraser Nash and others built "replicas" of their successful racing cars. I accentuate "successful". 0858 Can Am can never be considered as "successful" as world championship contender. tongascrew

 

Thanks tongascrew

 

Your description of what is being done with 0858 reminds me of what has been done to every 250 GTO, most 250TRs and so many other competition Ferraris. New bodies,many rebuilt and or not original engines and parts even those from Classiche[and not even built by Classiche], etc etc.are being judged and sold as being "original And now you want to draw the line with the restoration of 0858 P4 back to it's original glory.Someone out there seems to think 0846 is, because of paperwork from David Piper and Joanne Marshall at S F, a real or restored 0846 P4. Remember 0846 was "destroyed" by fire and written of by Ferrari The restorer got what was left of 0846 from, guess who" David Piper'' Is what David Piper and Talacrest really doing with 0858 so much different than what was done to 0846?? tongascrew

 

Quoted for Jim, as he's far better placed to answer this than me, but 0846 was restored back to it's last factory configuration, i.e. a P3/4, as best it could be using as many original parts as possible. If it was being hacked about to return it to a P3 then you'd have a point, but it's not.

 

This is spin to put it mildly. Could you please provide a link or clear evidence that Enzo created 0900 especially for DP? I also note the use of "replica"......

 

Again please provide SN's and clear evidence, the emphasis being on "every". I for one would be most interested to hear how many 250 GTO's have had new bodies crafted in England using an English wheel.

Thanks.

 

George,
I really have to call you to task. The longer this thread has gone on, the more reckless your statements have become.
It's certainly fine to have a point/counterpoint. It would be a boring world if we were all in agreement at all times.
However, this post and many of yours in this thread just fly in the face of what are incontrovertible facts.
Best,
Dave