Replicas, why bother ??

Why does driving a replica, as opposed to an original (Ferrari, Triumph, Porsche, Alfa, etc.) make one more of a driver?

 

I don't share your view that big money justifies the choice to create a fake.

To me, it's not about the money. As I posted earlier, the enthusiast with the authentic Porsche 944 (not terribly expensive) is the real deal. The guy with the Testarossa-nee-MR2 is a poser.

 

Yeah a Testarossa nee mr2 might be aposer, but between those two poles lays a toolroom copy of acar no longer in production. But like all immature people you can only use extreme examples to make a weak non point. Your use of the term fake bleies your inability to even countenance an different view.

Big money on another thread seems to justify truning a ferrari can am car, rebodying it into a P4, to me that is a sacrildge even though it might be worth more. Why ruin a historic artifact, what real collector would do that. If you really have to have a p4 get a tool room copy made to drive and preserve the can am car. But I guess to your point some people just wnat to say they have a 25 mill p4. I would respect the person in a toolroom copy more, because the tool room copy is built for driving, and in this case the rebody is built for displaying wealth. In fact has anyone in that last 20 years seen a p3 or p4 driven on the track in anger, answer is no. If you want to see thta its going to be aor experience that recreation. Point is there are lots of greay areas between a mr2 testraossa and a can am bistsa p4 and a tooroom copy.


Funny though and maybe off point, but at the track there is a great 944 track car, fully setup, its always by far the slowest out there.

 

Its not what just you might drive down the road, its how you drive it and how it goes, that is where we differ. And different tools do different things. So driving a recreation(to the limit) of any number of given cars is very different to driving a modern offering, or driving an older lesser car. You see some of us dont just cruise around, so how a car goes and goes at the limit and dances at the limit is very much what the experience is about. There are not modern alternatives and most older cars of the same performance and experience are also priced into the millions. The option then is a recreation. Or maybe an old car car upgrade which is a form of recreation, like turning your GTV into a GTA style track car or mustang into a Gt350, and these are well accepted and pretty much everywhere. I dont think they have deoressed the price of GTa's or GT 350's they have just widened the range of the sport and audience. The problem is only with fraud and non declaration, but if you know your cars, all the "real" ones are now known..

To put it in your porche context, one could drive a 356 down the street, but pushing to the limit in a 356 is very different to a 356 4 cam or 550 spyder or a 904. The alternative is to build your own 904 and run it to the limit.

But I understand that in moderm America, in big city areas with patroled speed limited roads its probably impossible to really grow up learning how to really drive, so a car takes on a different dimension, more an expresion by looks and badge than all out go and so for some a recreation may have avery different purpose, thta of to fool. But I am willing to bet that this is a minority, and seriously who cares.


Harleys are interesting, they are not really fast they handle like crap and the brakes are crap, but people love them. Its the modern antique still being built, full of experience and charisma, going even a little fast is really engaging because the limits are so low. No need for a recreation, new Harleys are a new build equivalent and are popular as a result. Ducati built sport classics for a while very popular, people loved the old style bike they could buy new. Due to legislative requirements in the car world these options do not exist, at least in the high performance arena, so you build your own.

Yes old alfas from the 50's and 60's are truly great, but if you want to go big bore, complex motors sound and fury with handling then you are potetialy in recreation teritory. Ever hear a small block ford with open headers in a GT 40 winding out, or a 250 SWB, now imagine being behind the wheel pushing it all the way out, there really are no other equivalents being made today or available as used old cars.

Its really no diffferent to someone putting a hemi in a lesser muscle car body. Look at 60's mustangs there are so many shelby 350gt clones its unbeliveable, and lots of them are historic racing too. Whats the difference. You are taking a lesser mustang and turning it into a 60's icon. In fact people do the same thing to go historic racing in alfas. As long as its all clear what it is, ie no fraud involved no harm.

As to what people think about what you drive, if they think its real a recreation a kit or whatever who cares, surely you own the car for your personal driving pleasure. If you need people to think something about you based on what you they think you drive and how much it cost then you have issues with your own shaollowness and lack of a life which no car is really going to resolve. Where I hang people judge you by the skill with which you handle the macheinary far more than what machineary you might afford.

Maybe its a west east coast thing. I take my ferrari out early on a sunday and really wring it out, hopefully no really notices, because most people kinda get edgy seeing a machine being wrung out, or envious of anice car. The I come home and put it in the garage. The lotus is cool for boping around in because to most eyes its small and inncocuous, but half my miles have been on the track because if you really want to use it, the limits are really way to high to exploit on the street. I do understand that on the west coast people drive around all day in their excotics and antiques to see and be seen so its a different culture. Maybe I am being mean, you have great roads on the left coast and good weather so its probably fun to take an old car for a spirited drive at most times.

 

Spoken like a man who is well and truly cool and nobody's fool!

 

So you disparage the guy who creates a replica Testarossa but you're OK with the guy who creates a fake 250 GTO.

If it's an accurate fake of an expensive Ferrari, it's fine. If it's a mediocre fake of a cheap Ferrari, you look down on it because the guy isn't a real driver (?)

 

No one in the fake camp has explained why you need to steal the 904 body design in order to push the car to the limit. The fake handbag crowd is at least honest about liking the look, and not claiming that a fake Gucci or LV bag carries stuff in a unique way that must be experienced.

The alternative is to buy another real Porsche that you can afford, and drive it like you stole it. I don't know any other marque whose clubs have more track days, or any other marque that has so many track-worthy cars from the 1950s through 2013 that you can buy and drive. Seriously, anything from a 356 to an early 911 to a 914 (in fast and slow flavors) to the 924-944 range to bulletproof 911s... no one has to fake it. Real Porsches abound.

 

You see you are lumping Kitcars, fakes replicas and recreations into one category when they patently are not.

If someone take s aMR2 and puts ferrari badges on it that is a fake and I wonder why you would do that. I can see how someoen like you would enigrate this and call it afake. But to me its no more ridiculous than wearing ferrari clothing.

Now if you make a contach kit car with chevy V8, then that is a kit car that dimesionaly looks like a countach, but really other than silouhette has nothing to do with a CT. To anyone who knows cars its prtetty obvious what it is and i dont judge the owner, unless of course they put all lambo badges on it and stickers, then they are trying to pretend its something its not. To me a fiberglass ct is pretty obvous from the interior to the body material to motor sound, and undoubtably is a very different driving experience. Its a cool car that looks like a CT no harm no foul.

Cobra replicas are two categories those that look like cobras and those really patterned on real cobras from suspension to real 427 fords. I prefer some more than others based on authenticity of the copy, but theya re all cool roadsters.

I also have no issue with a ferrari powered special running at ferrari events, to me the motor is the essence of the ferrari. Now if someone wants to recreate a historic ferrari thats even betetr than a ferrari powered special providing they gett he details right.

So to be clear I have no problem with any of it. My only areas of criticism are putting horses on a MR2, I mean what are you doing there. But then as I said I think people in ferrari clothing are equaly foolish.

Wgere does a ferrar swd recreation or D type recreation fit. As cars I think theya re totaly cool and excellent, they fill a space for which there are no equivalents and as long as no fraud involved theya re great. Same a s a GT 350 clone or new build GTA. What i appreciate about these things is how well they are executed and how they are used. True as a wealth statement tho old ones are the way to go.

As to 904 replicas. Lets see how many 911's have been turned into RS lightweght "tributes" it dont hewar any issues fromt he porche community. What about a singer. Go to a porche trackday, how many 935 and rsr lookalikes are there running around the track. What are they doing here, startinmg with an old proche shell and building the car they want.

As to 904's beck makes a great lookalike. Its different to a 911 stylistavcaly, but also because its mid engined. I love the look, love porche air cooled motors and dont love 911's so maybe a beck 904 suits me. No one at a trackday thinks its a "real" 904, none of which stops it from being a great or cool car the same way that any 911 special or 944 turned into a race car is cool. I mean they didnt leave the factory all stripped out fiberglass fenders twin plug motors either. Porche did buil;d 944 race cars. Now if you taker astreet 944 and trun it into a proche race car spec, should this not be allowed because its not a factory race car. I guess youa re Ok with it because the shell and block came from porche, which is like being Ok with a 250 2+2 chop because the motor and chassis came from marnello. Grey areas.

Your big objection is you think people will be fooled into thinking you are somehow something you are not because of how your car looks. I think an owner of a "real" 250 swb who cant drive for crap and prades around the track is a poseur ****, and someone driving the wheels of a accurate 250 swb recreation is a hero driver. We just ahve different dtabndards for what we think is of value in a car and an owner.

Yo asnwer you accuratly, the 90-4 design at the limit is a very different experienmce to a 911 at the limit, two different animals. You know some like vanilla and some like chocolate but wqe both like ice cream.

The handbag anaology fally flat because of the following. A handbag is all about external impression, functionaly a Kmart handbag and a Louis Vutton do the same thing, a handbag then is a marketing drived status thing, a pure fasion acessory. A car on the other hand, or at least where I live is primarily about the experience of function, and admiration of the form. Where you hand I think the emphasis is more on the visuals and how they connect toe xpression of wealth, therefore you cant see a recreation as a great car because a car to you is soemthign different, I understand where you are comming from, we are just comming from very different places..

 

They are all in the "not a Ferrari" category.

Kit cars don't have to be rip-offs of another manufacturer's design. They could be originals.

But fakes/replicas/re-creations are all in the same sad bucket. Different term, different set of excuses, same result.

 

Whatever

 

A handbag is primarily about the "admiration of form" as well. No one is creating Pontiac Aztek replicas.

If someone wants to create a "250 GTO" and not use the 250 GTO body, then I would agree with you. But ultimately fakes/replicas are very much about the external impression. Look at the legions of plastic Beck "550 Spyders" powered by VW or Subaru engines -- all about the form factor, nothing else. It looks cool; can't afford a real one; don't want to deal with the complicated Porsche four cam engine; get a cheap fake that looks the same to meet the need.

 

Good Lord, so you don't like any kind of replicas, and think those who might are poor people who should "get a job" - your quote

Whatever already!

 

Actualy you can make a vw motor perform at least as well as an old 4 cam. Nothing wrong with admiring the firm in addition to the performance. See to you a car is all form, because you are a driver poseiur unable to undertand more. Its Ok most new fast car drivers are the same as you. If one put a 4 cyl subaru engine in 90% of new 458's the owners would never even know. Its Ok thpough its the appeal to poseurs that drives volume and therefore profits to develop great cars, pity it comes with the tyrany of paddle crap.
As to a handbag all it is as far as I can see is external impresiion, a car has so many otehr dimentsions.

Nothing wrong with keeping a tried and true form, architects do it every day. Not everyone is a pinifarina to come up with agreat classic shape, so they recreate one already there, just like the house you live in.

Seriously grow up,

 

He is just a troll witht he same line over and over, lacks the intellect to even debate the larger points. In any event what he thinks is totaly irrelevant, there is a large replica and recreation industry, and most manufaturers have no issue, after all its the classics which give their brands design language and cred to poseurs.

Me I just enjoy driving, something bullsh**tter might try to do before pontificating..

Look at his avatar, some homerotic idolization of James dean, I gues thats why he supposedly has a 356. Its like paying extra for a car because sme celb owned it, seriously who gives a crap.

 

I'm all for "intelligent" discussion, but even my son gets annoying when he just keeps asking "why...why...why...why" and yet already given an answer!

Anyways, life is to short for argumentative haters, and haters will only ever be haters!

 

I think no amount of posts will sway the opinion of those opposed to fakes. A fake is a fake is a fake. There is just no way around it. Call it a fake, replica, homage or whatever, it's still a fake. BTW there seems to be more hate and resentment directed towards people who own the real cars and have real enthusiasm for the brand.

 

Some people might be, but they are just as guilty of being closed minded then
They're just cars, real, replica, whatever, at the end of the day, it doesn't mean a hill of beans!

 

It seems obvious by your posts that there is quite a bit more than your "I only care about the driving experience" line. It seems you are in desperate need of some sort of acceptance or praise. I hope Bullfighter changes his opinion on fakes so this personal attack on him will end and you can feel good about your car.

 

People will always have different opinions, that is a fact. People also forget this is just a forum. To me it is just to telling of replica owners and their true intensions when they spaz out at someone who does not share their opinion on fakes. At the end of the day the opinion of others does matter to them and apparently quite a lot!

 

Unless it's the non-replica owners 'spazing out', and keep repeating them same over & over, as if everyone else should change to their POV
Give an opinion, but then be flexible enough to understand others who do not necessarily agree, but certainly the "they should get a job" POV is just snobbery, and that's when it no longer matters

 

I don't think so. I myself believe that statement is the only way to go. If one wants to own a 288 GTO these days, hell yah, get a job, get a better job, create your own job and make that money and buy that car. It's the only way. It's not snobbery, it's just life. Some people will make it, some won't and some will fake it.

 

Yeah because my boxer is a fake and I need a poesur fool to verify that I have self worth by driving a "real" ferrari. You see Bull fighter insults a significant segemnt of the great car hobby by calling them and their cars fakes, which is in and of itself an isnsultung and denugrating term. As a hobyist with a number of cars none of which are replicas rewcreations or what have you I still fiund this term and attitude offemnsive and the attitude behingd it the antithesis of what I value in the hobby. Its like the scene in the film Chaplain whenn the Nazi goes off against the Jeews and chaplain is leaving and the Nazi saays you are not ajew and Chaplain responds I am sorry i dont have the pleasure of being one.

True if you value a car as a welath statement like a handbag then a kit car or recreration is a fake, wheras in my view someone who views a car like that, and views a car price or label as somehow bestowing something upon the owner is nothing more than a poseur ponce who cant drive and misses the point. This is type of person who manufaturers cater to by making 500 hp cars with paddle crap that drive like hyundais because their clientale is too lame to actualy drive and they need sales. You know the type of person who owns a great car which they are too lame to really drive so they get self kudos from cocsors, shame on you I say. Its like being married to a hot women bbecause of yur wealth and showing her off even though intellectualy and sexualy you really are not up to it so you need the badge to heva a feelign of self worth. frankly this attitide is the antitheiss of who I am am and its a great shame the car hobby is blighted by it. Its the same attitude prevelant in wealthy neighbourhoods where people associate by house value.

What Bullfighetr is doing is attacking a whole swath of the car hobby with his elitist views ad inadequacy, based on brand presence and cost, as opposed to just being able to appreciate a cool car whatever the label. He cant appreciate a cool car because he mneeds a label to verufy that it is good, not a hobbyist just an eltist ass. And like the upriing in Turkey i hope I am banned for my views.

As Mandela famously said, you can only see as much of the mountain as is visible from where you are standing. We are clearly standing on very different parts of the mountain.

 

Yeah or be smart and build a recreation, Just like the billionaire in the UK did for his bugatti royal, you know the guy who owns doningtron race track and one of the worlds best car collections . He did the math and worked out he could build an exact car foe 1/10th the price, he was just being smart and not a slave to false convention made law by auction houses and others feeding off the hobby. Its not about whether you can afford it, why do people richer than most own recreations, its about the drive and being smart with your money, not about some false elitism to feel good.

the reason these great old cars were saved when they were obsolete is because some valued them for what they wereas machines not what they were worth which was very little ans as a result the poseur crowd ignored them buying new auto vettes circa 1974 s instead..

 

If someone wants to make a point, stop using insulting terms to others like fake and start adressing the points. If you need to resort to insulting terms then your arguemnt is weak.
So far the anti crowd who mostly dont even own a so called high end car resort to the term fake.

Its almost like an attitude of if I cant have a great car then no one other than the very few unobtanium can.

 

But it is FAKE! This is what I just don't understand. If someone likes their fake Ferrari or whatever for any reason, that's great for them! The mere fact they NEED to romanticize it with different terms makes me believe they want it to be viewed as a real Ferrari. PERIOD. The only real reason people are told a fake is a homage or recreation is to elevate the car in status. I think the owners are afraid that if the represent their car as a fake, people will disregard or dismiss it and this would be very damaging to a fragile ego.